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  1. #11
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    the way i read it it appeared that he said that the poker rooms were using the deposits for advertising and had to try to make the advertising money back in rake before players withdrew.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan Little View Post
    I typed out a nice long reply then I realized it said almost the exact same thing as jjpregler said right above me.


  2. #12
    Super Moderator Xopods's Avatar
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    I think you've probably got an beef with Equity the way you used to have one with me and need to read his posts more carefully, because he clearly didn't say that.

    You're a good poker player and a good person, but I think - like me, I hasten to add! - you're prone to taking disagreement personally when you're in a bad mood to begin with, and I know real life is being shitty to you these days.

    You and Equity have some fundamental differences in the way you look at poker, but he's not madbetty, he understands stuff about stuff. He's not always wrong, so you shouldn't read his posts with the initial assumption that he's wrong, which is what I think you're doing.
    Quote Originally Posted by pikachar
    Honestly didn t read OP I just got to say xopods is right on the money
    I design board & card games!: http://www.benefactum.ca

  3. #13
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    No, I'm over my beef with him. I don't care about that, I just misunderstood his post.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan Little View Post
    I typed out a nice long reply then I realized it said almost the exact same thing as jjpregler said right above me.


  4. #14
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    Additionally, I remembered our argument last year on this forum. And it was remembering the lessons from that argument that caused me to immediately delete my original response. I was pissed that night. Like I wanted to shoot his avatar pissed, regardless of the cost of my monitor. (It didn't help that he has a Phil Ivey avatar who I don't like at all.)

    But instead of escalating to forum war, I deleted my comments. Then when I wrote two or three more posts that were to say the least, angry posts, I erased them before posting them.

    Instead I waited till the next morning and wrote a less angry post saying I felt insulted so I was walking away from the topic. And all in all, by the end of that day, I didn't even care about it anymore.

    I know I can rub people the wrong way sometimes. I don't sugar coat things. If I think someone is wrong, I will say it.

    All in all, I don't hold grudges. I'm over anything we fought about last year and I'm over anything said by Equity. It happens. We are part of a community that in the end, we all want to dominate the poker games we play.

    What some might not know is that I truly want to help players learn. I don't know if you can tell, but I take pride in my answers. I take a long time to try to comb though the information to try to give the best answer or advice I can.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan Little View Post
    I typed out a nice long reply then I realized it said almost the exact same thing as jjpregler said right above me.


  5. #15
    Super Moderator Xopods's Avatar
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    With the exception of madbetty, who was mad at all of us, I don't think you've actually rubbed anyone here the wrong way. Certainly, I was never upset myself by our conversations... rather, I think most of us have, at some point, rubbed you the wrong way.

    Anyway, it just seemed to me that the frequency and extent to which you've been misreading Equity's posts lately indicated that you might be coming into discussions with the initial assumption that he's going to be wrong since you've disagreed with him a lot in the past.
    Quote Originally Posted by pikachar
    Honestly didn t read OP I just got to say xopods is right on the money
    I design board & card games!: http://www.benefactum.ca

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xopods View Post
    rather, I think most of us have, at some point, rubbed you the wrong way.
    Nah, just you and Equity.

    No the real reason I came back to this thread was that I never actually did the math on your rocket thingy.

    The premise is that you can 4 bet shove with a range weaker than normal with a caller squeezed between you, the opener and the 3 bettor. I would believe that this has to be a spot where the 3 bettor can have bluffs in his range and not have a total range of hands he can gii with.

    so let's assume the following:

    300/600 + 75

    Effective stacks 15k - 9 players

    Your hand - J8s

    You open to 1,200, get a caller and the button 3 bets to 3,000. You shove. The button 3 bets with 9% and will call of with 5%.

    6975 * 45% + 55%[(32,775 * 30%) - 13,800] = 957 cEV. 1.5BBs profit. Ok, it seems to be profitable.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan Little View Post
    I typed out a nice long reply then I realized it said almost the exact same thing as jjpregler said right above me.


  7. #17
    Super Moderator Xopods's Avatar
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    This isn't the thread we were talking about the rocket jump in, but anyway, since we're here...

    You misunderstand the play. The guy 3-betting can't fold because he's a short stack who's all-in - only you and the caller have 20 BB or larger stacks.

    The idea is this:

    I've got J8s and 16k. Button has 16k too, but BB has only 4k.

    I raise to 1200. Button calls 1200. BB goes all in for 4k, reopening the betting for me. I can't make him fold, but I hardly care because it's only 2800 more, with around 7000 in the pot including the SB and antes, so I've got correct odds against anything he has. What's key is that he has enough to reopen the betting for me, so I can shove over the top and force Button to fold basically his entire range.

    The theory is that you open quite a lot of hands when you've got a loose passive table overall and someone in the blinds who's in the red zone and likely to shove... you may be losing chips to that person, but as long as you're likely to get one or two callers between the two of you, the fact that he lets you double-squeeze those callers makes it profitable.

    (By the same token, you should usually avoid flatting someone's raise when there's a short stack behind you who's likely to shove, unless you're running an even more complicated trap... e.g. you could flat with AA hoping the shorty shoves and then either the original raiser tries to rocket jump you, or he calls and then you can shove because the betting is reopened.)
    Last edited by Xopods; May 8th, 2014 at 06:39 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by pikachar
    Honestly didn t read OP I just got to say xopods is right on the money
    I design board & card games!: http://www.benefactum.ca

  8. #18
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    Oh yeah, I've seen Jonathan and other coaches explain that. It's just simply isolating the all in player.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan Little View Post
    I typed out a nice long reply then I realized it said almost the exact same thing as jjpregler said right above me.


  9. #19
    Super Moderator Xopods's Avatar
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    Right, it's natural to do once he's gone all-in. The point I was making in the article is that you can anticipate this outcome and open a much wider range if you have a passive player with a decent stack after you, followed by an aggressive short stack acting after him.

    Isolating the short stack is reactive in terms of thought process, in other words, whereas setting up the rocket jump is proactive. Taking the spot vs. creating the spot.

    I.e. if I've got JTs in MP and I raise it because that's what I would usually do with JTs in MP, and some guy calls and a short-stack goes all-in, and I say, "well, I probably don't have the best hand, but I have correct odds against the shorty, so I'm going to reshove and the other guy should probably fold," that's isolating the short stack.

    If I've got A6o in MP and that's usually a fold for me, but I see the Button is 30/10/2 and has plenty of chips, and the BB is 27/22/10 and short-stacked, and I min-raise because I think Button will call me very wide and BB is likely to seize that opportunity to shove and hope that one of us folds and the other calls, thereby giving him a race with tons of dead money... that's the rocket jump. Its almost like a legal form of collusion with the BB - you're deliberately giving him the spot he wants, because it's going to be good for you too if he takes it. You both end up +EV at the passive player's expense.

    The moves involved are exactly the same, but the intent comes one step before.
    Last edited by Xopods; May 8th, 2014 at 07:24 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by pikachar
    Honestly didn t read OP I just got to say xopods is right on the money
    I design board & card games!: http://www.benefactum.ca

  10. #20
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    It must be a slippery slope with no end in site. The only hope is the winning players stick around longer to cover it, or don't advertise so much just let people find their own games

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