Basically tourney strategy. I was watching a poker vid, and the announcers got into quite a spirited 'conversation' about defending one's BB, based upon pot odds...

full tbl, EP raises 3X, 2 callers(inc button), SB folds. There is 10.5BB in pot, your getting over 5 to 1 to call, and even 27o is getting the odds. Part of the 'conversation' was playing OOP...

so in the above situation, do you play any 2 cards? I'll assume quality cards shouldn't be an issue, so let's talk about rags, not suited, not connected, like T5 or 94...

I don't agree with this, or even completing in the SB after say 4 limpers. It seems automatic but there are so many things to consider besides the effective pot odds, not least of which is whether your hand has reverse implied odds. So yes a hand like 5/6, 3/7, or 4/7 suited I'm probably playing, but the true gargae hands like J/2, 2/7, and Q/6 are going in the muck.

The thing is you are out of position and a guy with Aq against two weak limps is going to c bet a lot of boards same with a guy with AK. Some guys with AK etc will fire both the flop and the turn frequently. Also with hands like 10 5 you have a lot of domination issues when ep makes a loosish raise of a10 and you both hit a 10. You may pay over pairs off down a lot of streets and have only a decent chance of winning by bluffing so much.

Also good players expect decent opponents to have sets etc if they are doing certain actions and they may well put you on a set rather than a two pair so what is the difference. Set mining is statistically easier say you get sets 1/10 times 72 105 won't hit hard enough almost always. 2% two pair on the flop and 1.3 % for trips- when you do hit trips its less decepttive than a set.

However It does widen the range they have to put you on and if you get a passive ep raiser who will check back to players with a wide range on low board there is a decent amount of bluff potential.

Still I think if you will play junk in the blinds why not three bet it? This way you will get some info on opponents and just because a person raises EP in tourneys doesn't mean they are strong 55 etc. You will also get them to lay down with a c bet often if they do call your three bet.

Personally though as three betting from the blinds can look suspicious I would fold almost always with junky hands maybe i call in a pot that everyone is in lol.

Oh also with hands like 10 5 7 2 you are giving yourself no opportunity at straights and very little op at flushes if it is 105 o Agree with Steve its not so bad with hands with a lot of outs or at least some connectivity suitedness are not so bad but in general fold in the blinds they are the worse.

I think you have to put consideration on your opponent type and not just generalize this is what I should be doing because it's a pure math play. Is the villian aggro, passive, tight, loose. All factor into my decision making. Also, if your playing a tourney then stack sizes and other tourney play are considerations (e.g. is it late in a tourney, bubble play, early on when your deep stacked). Food for thought, so no I don't play any two cards as there are other factors in the decision making process!

...but the true gargae hands like J/2, 2/7, and Q/6 are going in the muck.

Agreed, good post. Even though the math 'says so', which makes this kinda interesting... Personally, more hassle than worth??? Why I posted this.

...Still I think if you will play junk in the blinds why not three bet it?...

Because I'm tight passive! lol Actually, I like the way you think. Gonna defend BB, then defend!

I think you have to put consideration on your opponent type and not just generalize this is what I should be doing because it's a pure math play. ...

What if you don't have any info? First hand of tourney, or your tbl broke, and you at new tbl?

Having info is great, but maybe you don't, or even maybe you have more than you need. This isn't a trick ?, no magic way to play.
Yet, this situation happens quite a bit in poker including tourneys.

Also, don't poo-poo the math with more math, or need to be situation aware, even if I do it myself. T2 isn't named Doyle Brunson, because he lost(bad analogy). Position in poker, is like position in sex(another bad analogy).

call, fold?

What if you don't have any info? First hand of tourney, or your tbl broke, and you at new tbl?

Having info is great, but maybe you don't, or even maybe you have more than you need. This isn't a trick ?, no magic way to play.
Yet, this situation happens quite a bit in poker including tourneys.

Without information you should be more prone to play ABC poker and not get "fancy", since you don't know what you are up against. Imagine you are in a karate tournament; you're a black belt, and your opponent is an orange belt. In this case you know what to expect from him, what he is capable of. Now if you remove the belts from the equation you will have to be more cautious and feel your opponent out, since you don't know what they are capable of.

Yeap you need info on how much the opponent will call three bets how loose he raises whether he is a chronic floater on the flop but gives up the turn a lot whether he is capable of an air check raise. Once you notice an opponent calls a lot but then folds out to a lot fo c bets you may have a candidate for the 3 bet c bet steal. Experiment 3 bet when you get a loosish raise tight call then c bet any board and note whether they fold which ones they fold on etc. However I would start doing this with stronger hands like A10 A9 etc and see how it goes first.

I still think that its not a good idea with junk though as EP raisers aren't trying to steal your blinds but get value a lot and calling is bad because without initiative and facing a c bet with either no hand or a weak hand you will be donating chips.

There is a reason people love flat callers.

I would consider changing to tight aggressive for the most part too as your tight image can gain you chips a lot. Sure if there is an over aggressive player tight passive can work but you want to build pots up nice and early charge for draws make people make mistakes against the aggression.

Originally Posted by cpl_pf

Agreed, good post. Even though the math 'says so', which makes this kinda interesting... Personally, more hassle than worth??? Why I posted this.



Because I'm tight passive! lol Actually, I like the way you think. Gonna defend BB, then defend!



What if you don't have any info? First hand of tourney, or your tbl broke, and you at new tbl?

Having info is great, but maybe you don't, or even maybe you have more than you need. This isn't a trick ?, no magic way to play.
Yet, this situation happens quite a bit in poker including tourneys.

Also, don't poo-poo the math with more math, or need to be situation aware, even if I do it myself. T2 isn't named Doyle Brunson, because he lost(bad analogy). Position in poker, is like position in sex(another bad analogy).

Agree with the other posters above. However, if it's the 1st hand of a tourney (or at a new table) and your fairly deep and it's early in the tourney you can play based more on the math if you choose. I doubt at this point I would be 3 betting until I have a bit more info on the players so for me it's a call/fold situation (I feel that either would be OK), keeping in mind your giving up the equity and position to try and flop a big hand with junk.

Do what you feel comfortable with as well unless your feeling like experimenting (you did say your tight passive, work on becoming aggressive vs passive this is more important to change vs tight vs loose).

PS.. Not poo-pooing the math, just saying the other factors are just as important as math and your wanting to take all in and account for all information on each hand to make your decisions as easy as possible during the hand.

It's a good question.

I think it depends a lot on how comfortable you are playing post flop and OOP, if you can't figure out lines or how to play a line to rep a certain hand than don't bother... A major leak that you see a lot of people have live is defending blinds when they get lost post flop. Also a big problem people have in these spots is that they don't really know what they want to flop in order to continue with a hand... I will play hands like J4 in the BB to a raise and a few callers if I like the table and the spot, but I am also confident that I can put the pieces together correctly to make it profitable over time.