this was in a fifty50 tourney. what do you think of my play.


PokerStars Game #65671747544: Tournament #424420613, $3.30+$0.20 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level IV (30/60) - 2011/08/07 20:03:33 WET [2011/08/07 15:03:33 ET]
Table '424420613 1' 10-max Seat #6 is the button
Seat 1: eduih (1620 in chips)
Seat 2: donwo (1410 in chips)
Seat 3: fjofjo (1610 in chips)
Seat 4: myrka726 (1735 in chips)
Seat 6: plopjan (3020 in chips)
Seat 7: dannyeff (2220 in chips)
Seat 8: pav_av1962 (1500 in chips)
Seat 9: zloyoduvan (840 in chips)
Seat 10: FKB-Stein (1045 in chips)
dannyeff: posts small blind 30
pav_av1962: posts big blind 60
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to dannyeff [Kh As]
zloyoduvan: folds
FKB-Stein: folds
eduih: raises 120 to 180
donwo: folds
fjofjo: calls 180
myrka726: folds
plopjan: folds
dannyeff: raises 2040 to 2220 and is all-in
pav_av1962: folds
eduih: folds
fjofjo: calls 1430 and is all-in
Uncalled bet (610) returned to dannyeff
*** FLOP *** [JavaScript 5s 5c]
*** TURN *** [JavaScript 5s 5c] [Ks]
*** RIVER *** [JavaScript 5s 5c Ks] [Td]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
dannyeff: shows [Kh As] (two pair, Kings and Fives)
fjofjo: shows [Jc Kd] (two pair, Kings and Jacks)
fjofjo collected 3460 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 3460 | Rake 0
Board [JavaScript 5s 5c Ks Td]
Seat 1: eduih folded before Flop
Seat 2: donwo folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: fjofjo showed [Jc Kd] and won (3460) with two pair, Kings and Jacks
Seat 4: myrka726 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: plopjan (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: dannyeff (small blind) showed [Kh As] and lost with two pair, Kings and Fives
Seat 8: pav_av1962 (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 9: zloyoduvan folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 10: FKB-Stein folded before Flop (didn't bet)

i like that.... never thought of it like that. usually i like to play ak like aces preflop if i get a good read on somone. al call 88 to 1010 or a weeker ace to ace king preflop. i like the chances but thats usually preflop. if it was aq i would of folded.

I don't think a shove is horrible. There is 16% of your stack in the middle in dead money. We also need to build a stack for the final table.

That said, I prefer to flat and see a flop (I'm better post flop than a lot of these guys, so I can minimize variance by out playing post instead of flipping pre). There isn't antes (yet) and we still have a stack.

I don't like a 3-bet. You're going to put into too much money, and the pot is going to be too big to fold to a shove.

Originally Posted by mattgeer

I don't think a shove is horrible. There is 16% of your stack in the middle in dead money. We also need to build a stack for the final table.

That said, I prefer to flat and see a flop (I'm better post flop than a lot of these guys, so I can minimize variance by out playing post instead of flipping pre). There isn't antes (yet) and we still have a stack.

I don't like a 3-bet. You're going to put into too much money, and the pot is going to be too big to fold to a shove.

I dont think a shove is horrible either...obviously your really hoping for a fold, but if they call your probably flipping. Its v v rare to run into KK or AA which is all your really scared of. Personally I've found with the Fold Equity, chance of dominating A x, and the 50% chance the rest of the time, it's usually more profitable doing this than flatting and missing the flop.

The trouble with flatting is you have no idea where you stand for the rest of the hand. A 3 bet will really narrow down his starting range and make the rest of the hand easier to play....

The Villain made a horrible call....you got unlucky.

Well, two things:

1) A 3-bet is going to narrow his range. He'll fold worse, and 4-bet with better. So.. you don't get value with the best hand, or you have to fold the worse hand while wasting chips at the same time.

Also, we're playing poker. You're not going to define the entire hand preflop. You can play post, gather information and try to make the best play possible.

It's hard to say any more really, because we don't have a post flop to discuss.

2. Another thing about the 3-bet is that there really isn't enough in your stack (or the others) to do it. I mean, you're going to have to 3-bet like 500-600, right? That's 1/4th of your stack. Are you really going to fold? It'd be hard to unless you knew 100% he's got AA, KK, otherwise you can make the call with your investment/dead money in the pot.

And -- if you 3-bet and one of those other guys shove, you'll have to call off anyway, you'll be getting too good a price not to. So defining their range does nothing.

My preferred plays: Flat >> Shove >> 3-Bet

Originally Posted by colinbradley7

I dont think a shove is horrible either...obviously your really hoping for a fold, but if they call your probably flipping. Its v v rare to run into KK or AA which is all your really scared of. Personally I've found with the Fold Equity, chance of dominating A x, and the 50% chance the rest of the time, it's usually more profitable doing this than flatting and missing the flop.

The trouble with flatting is you have no idea where you stand for the rest of the hand. A 3 bet will really narrow down his starting range and make the rest of the hand easier to play....

The Villain made a horrible call....you got unlucky.

Originally Posted by daniel1

al call 88 to 1010 or a weeker ace to ace king preflop. i like the chances but thats usually preflop. if it was aq i would of folded.

What did you mean by this?


Also...

You said you would play AK like you play AA... Well, with AA in this situation, you definitely make a nice sized 3-bet. He only raised 120 chips... Shoving with AA here is no where near as good as making a 3-bet with AA and trying to get as much value out of the hand as you can.

I really don't understand the argument for 3-betting here -- is no one looking at stack sizes?

Assuming we 3-bet 2.5x+1, our 3bet size is going to be about 620. We'll call it 600 to make the math simple.

The size of the pot at this point is now about 1,000 (to make math simple).

If these guys decide to 4-bet stuff it, the pot will be about 2,600, and it'll only cost us 1,000 more to call. Our odds here are 2.6 to 1 with AK. Considering that this is a $3.30 (yes it matters), I'd say either one of their stuffing ranges consist of AQ+ and JJs+ (and it could be wider).

Versus this range we're almost 50% exact, and getting killer odds. We have to (should) call. And considering this is a 50-man, it's pretty easy, especially considering a shove here with the dead money is standard for a lot of regs.

So I guess I don't understand what 3-betting does. We're not folding, and those guys can't really expect us to -- so essentially we flip our hands face up -- especially if we only do it with the very tip top of our range.