I really didn't like folding this, but if his range is overpair/flush draw/combo draw/TPTK/two pair/set, I'm not in great shape. How much do donks turn up with something like AT here? What does a tiny donklead followed by min-raise 3-bet mean on this flop?

Good fold, or too tight? At the time I was only really considering shoving or folding, but since it's a min-raise, maybe call and shove the turn if it blanks and he checks, fold if he shoves or an A or club falls?

I kind of felt like he had a set, but was scared of both my flush getting there, so he doesn't want to check or call, but also doesn't want me folding an overpair...

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, 6+0.50 Tournament, 30/60 Blinds (8 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

UTG (t3005)
UTG+1 (t1485)
MP1 (t3690)
MP2 (t2840)
CO (t6775)
Hero (Button) (t3465)
SB (t5815)
BB (t4215)

Hero's M: 38.50

Preflop: Hero is Button with J, J
1 fold, UTG+1 calls t60, 3 folds, Hero bets t240, SB calls t210, 2 folds

Flop: (t600) 8, 3, 7 (2 players)
SB bets t120, Hero raises to t700, SB raises to t1280, Hero folds

Total pot: t2000

Look at the odds you're getting. How can you fold?

Right, to both of you. That's the problem. I'm getting amazing odds to call... but I don't want to call, because almost any card on the turn is bad for me - even the JavaScript isn't perfect, as it makes me lose to T9. So I want to push or fold... but I don't want to push, because his weak bets look like he's begging for a call, which means I'm beat, so I want to fold. But I don't want to fold because of the odds I'm getting, so I want to call... so I want to push... so I want to fold... and so on.

I'm leaning towards calling the flop and shoving a relatively blank turn (i.e. not a club or A) if he checks. Really, I folded because I ran out of time trying to make up my mind and didn't get to the call button quick enough when I decided the chips were worth the extra thinking time... but I don't really regret my fold because I do feel like two pair or a set is the most likely thing here, and if not, it's a draw, and I'm basically a coin flip against most flush draws, since most will contain at least one over or a gutshot.

It's a tough hand because his line doesn't make sense with any hand at all... whether he's bluffing, semibluffing, trying to figure out if his marginal hand is good, betting for value, betting to defend a strong but vulnerable hand, or whatever... it's wrong no matter what. So how do you figure out what kind of hand it is that he's playing badly?

lol he doesn't have T9

Originally Posted by MJPerry

lol he doesn't have T9

Tc9c is impossible? I think it's entirely possible, though maybe not the most likely thing... anyway, I was just illustrating my point that it's really unlikely that the turn is going to make me feel better about this hand in any way. Obv. the JavaScript is the card I'd most like to see, I'm just saying even that doesn't guarantee that I'm now winning.

What do you think he has? You've said you don't like folding, but you haven't said whether you shove or flat. I guess you're suggesting I flat, since you're saying the odds I'm getting are so great... which they aren't, if I push. Whatever he has, he's not folding it, so pushing is equivalent to calling an all-in, in which case I'm really only getting 2-1 on my money. I don't know that I'm not further behind his range than that, as these really look like "please call" bets to me.

So let's say I flat, the turn is the 2d and he shoves. Do I call off the rest of my stack, or fold, with 1/3 of it in the pot already? If he checks, do I check back, or shove? What if he makes another 1/4 pot "omg plz don't fold" bet?

This is a $6 crapshoot, overpair = nuts unless you have a read on the specific villain otherwise

its too early to have a good read on the sb so in that case, id put him in the donk category until i learn otherwise.

planning your hand is fundamental and here u started with one plan and ended up abandoning it in favour of a weaker one. By raising his flop bet, you're committing to playing a big pot as u now put 25% of ur stack in and created a pot a little over 50% of ur remaining stack. By making this plan, stick to it and push hoping to see a flush draw and/or a couple of overs. I dont like his line but I'm getting my stack in regardless.

I'd also prob raise to ~300/350 pf as JJ is a bitch to play in a multiway pot oop. Raising more pf also makes your post-flop decision making easier as the pot is bigger.

Originally Posted by piv

dont raise if you're going to fold to a 3bet

Especially on a sick wet board where you have some of his outs in his range covered