What are you talking about? You didn't slowplay anything. In fact, you played bottom-pair-no-kicker a little fast (to say the least) with three people in the pot. I'm pretty loosy-goosy and I'd be check-folding that flop. Having made that bet - which you should regard as a bluff or at best a semibluff - you catch a miracle card on the turn and check-raise it, which I think is correct, or at least acceptable.

However, check-raise is not slowplaying. Slowplaying would be check-calling the turn and then sticking the money in on the river, which I agree would have been stupid, since 32o is hardly the nuts on this board.

I almost never slowplay anything smaller than a full house, and even that burns me sometimes, like today... playing a 2-table tourney for variety, I flopped QQ9 with 99 in the pocket, out of position unfortunately. I tried to check-raise the flop but everyone checked behind me. The turn was a J, creating flush and straight draws. I checked again, second guy donkishly bet 100 into a pot of 600. Third guy donkishly raised to 350. I donkishly called, hoping they were both drawing and the river would give one or both of them straights/flushes. Second guy folded... guess it was just a post-oak bluff.

Instead of a straight or flush card, though, the river was a third Q, counterfeiting my hand. I checked miserably, hoping I could at least make it to showdown, but the other guy shoved for just a little less than the pot. Figuring he was almost certainly on a J (or less likely, the quads), I had to fold. Serves me right.

Don't bet to find out where you're at, do it for value or as a bluff.

Hm, I mean...check fold that flop? What's the point of defending 23o?

Betting for info is a valid strategy... just not on this board and with that hand, IMO. There are both kinds of draws there, it's a limped pot so the SB's range is pretty much "any two cards," and almost any drawing hand has an extra 6 outs against your hand, since every possible card except a 2 is an overcard to your pair. Also, many donks will call with AJ-AK on a board like this, so you can't even be sure you're getting called by a legitimate straight or flush draw. A flat could also mean 55-99, a slowplayed set, a weak T, or e.g. Ad3x

So basically, it's almost sure that one of the other players is going to call you, and you still won't know where you're at, and you'll have no way of knowing if the turn helped them, since the entire deck except a T, 4, 3 of not-Diamonds is a scare card for you. Even a 2 isn't safe, since it completes most of the likely straight draws. Meanwhile, you're putting chips in when you're very likely behind or at most a coin-flip, and making the pot bigger with a hand that will be hard to play on subsequent streets.

You got amazingly lucky hitting one of the only two cards in the deck that improves your hand without completing a draw, so now you just get all the money in the pot as fast as you can, no questions asked. The fact that there's even a doubt in your mind that doing so was the right thing when you caught a Joker like that should be proof enough that you had no business betting the flop at all.

----

It's rare that a bet is just for information anyway. Usually it is also either a semibluff or a value bet - the former in a case where getting called means you know the guy has a hand that will pay you if you hit, the latter in a case where a stronger hand would raise, so a call means you know you're probably ahead.

For instance, you're in the BB with JTs and the button raises. He's been doing that a lot, so you reraise. That's an information raise, mostly, and somewhat of a semibluff, since you have a decent hand, but you'd kind of prefer he folded. He calls, though, and you go to a flop. Flop comes J93 rainbow. Now you're out of position in what's probably a WA/WB situation - straight draws are not that likely, since you have a T and he probably wouldn't have called your reraise with T8 anyway... KQ and AQ aren't in great shape against you, and AK probably would have 4-bet preflop...

Essentially, if you're ahead, you've probably got him drawing to 3 outs (worst case scenario 8 vs. QT or 7 vs. KQ, and you don't really mind keeping those hands in so much because you'll get rich if you catch a Q), so you don't urgently need him to fold. If you're behind (probably to QJ-AJ), you have little chance of making him fold, and not many outs to help you. What you'd really like to do is just get to the showdown as quickly and cheaply as possible and see if your hand is good. However, by checking to him and calling his bets, you might have to put money in on two or all three streets before you know you're behind, since a) he's quite aggressive, b) if he has e.g. A9 and you check/call, he might figure you for the straight draw and keep betting, and c) he's capable of firing multi-barrel bluffs, especially if he has a hand like KQ with outs.

If you lead out, AJ and KJ will almost certainly raise, and QJ might as well. If you get raised, you fold, and save yourself a lot of money, most likely. A flat call, on the other hand, probably means you're ahead, and either he's drawing, or has a hand like A9 he thinks might be good. Your play on subsequent streets depends on what comes out and your read on the opponent, but your aggression on the flop will serve an extra purpose in that it will cool down your opponent's own tendency to bet and help you get to the coveted showdown cheaply. Finally, you know that an A doesn't necessarily mean you're beat, though you have to be careful, while a K almost certainly does mean you're behind and possibly as bad off as drawing at 4 outs for a split, so you can shut down without a second thought if that's what lands.

Originally Posted by Kataklysmos

No my only doubt in my mind was that I played it wrong with a check raise instead of a plain out shove as I didn't have enough to make a proper check-raise.

Great, let's play heads up sometime.

Seriously, though, if that's your attitude when a stronger player takes a good 20 minutes out of his evening to write a lengthy post to help your game, this will be the last time you see me posting to any of your threads. I'll save the help for people who deserve it.