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  1. #1
    Fish Food
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    Default River bet, Quads, three runners

    Ok, so I was playing a multi-table tournament, on a table with 10 people playing somewhat conservatively, but not ultra tight. It was not uncommon for three people to see the flop.

    The question I want to ask is about what I should do on the river.

    Hand went as follows:

    I am in late position, on just above average chip count. There is no massive chip leader. Blinds are 50/100, I have around 5500. A guy in early positions raises three times the big blind, a guy in mid position calls and I call with J9 off suit.

    The flop hits with 7JJ rainbow. I am thinking I am in good shape, but decide to slow play a little and how these guys want to play. I check. They both check. At this stage I am feeling confidant but in the back on my mind is that one of these guys might have the jack with a better kicker than mine. Statistically not likely but that was my gut.

    The turn is my fourth J. I know now that I am going to win this pot. No chance of a straight draw or better quads. I check again. There is a raise again then a call and my call.

    River is a king. This is where I'd like some hand analysis. What should I have done here?

    At this point all three of us have about half our stacks at risk.


    simcof

  2. #2
    Poker Hustler 22Fish's Avatar
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    I would never play trips this conservatively in a tournement, all you can do now is shove, nad hope they have a K,7,PP.
    Last edited by 22Fish; 02-06-2009 at 07:02 AM.

  3. #3
    Check Raiser
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    With your check on the flop, the turn is where you get the money in here... you missed your chance by the river, I'm afraid.

    With a bet and a call, at least one of them has a 7 and expects to split with another 7. They aren't going to put you on QQ-AA since you didn't raise preflop and didn't bet the flop. Maybe they should be scared of 88-TT, but how many players are that smart? As for your actual hand, people just don't generally think quads are realistically possible. Most people assume any 7 is pretty much teh nutz on that turn. If they both checked the turn, then it would be different - probably neither had a 7 then, and you'd give them another chance to make a boat on the river, or best of all for you, a second 7.

    With the bets on the turn, the K is bad for your hand, as neither of the other two players are likely to have one. You shouldn't have one either, unless it's K7, but again, how many players are smart enough to know that? They'll see it as a scare card and might fold now if you shove. Still, with those stacks, I think shove is all you can do and hope that at least one of them still thinks they're splitting with another 7.

    Also, your description of the flop is inconsistent with your description of pre-flop. You say the other two players are EP and MP and you're LP, but then you say that you checked and then they both checked. If you were out of position with a J here, I would probably check-raise it... but as last to act, when they both check to you (which is what actually happened, if you're remembering preflop correctly), I think you should bet, as it will look like a steal, and you'll get called by a 7, a pocket pair, and maybe something like AQ thinking you're full of it or just have a 7, and hoping to resteal on the river if you look weak on the turn.

    That last bit, incidentally, is why I find that bet-check-bet is a much better trapping pattern than the usual check-bet-bet or check-check-bet slowplay. People have learned to be wary of the regular slowplay, whereas betting the flop, checking the turn and then betting the river really looks like a bluff to a lot of people, especially if both cards blanked.

    P.S. 22Fish, I know that historically, any 3-of-a-kind was called a set... e.g. in Super System, Doyle Brunson talks about "a Set of Trips"... but I think that these days, most people reserve the term "set" for trips made with a pocket pair and one card on board, as that's an entirely different kind of hand from regular trips and played entirely differently, so we need different terms for them so we can keep them separate.
    Last edited by Xopods; 02-06-2009 at 04:08 AM.

  4. #4
    Poker Hustler 22Fish's Avatar
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    True, there is a big difference, it was a mistype. (corrected)

  5. #5
    Chaser Kataklysmos's Avatar
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    You're likely not going to get paid off however you can at least still make a decent bet and hope that they will call. Chances are, they won't but you can at least make an attempt. The pot is yours regardless but I would put out a bet 1/4 the size of the pot and hope that someone will get pushy and re-raise.

  6. #6
    Check Raiser
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kataklysmos View Post
    You're likely not going to get paid off however you can at least still make a decent bet and hope that they will call. Chances are, they won't but you can at least make an attempt. The pot is yours regardless but I would put out a bet 1/4 the size of the pot and hope that someone will get pushy and re-raise.
    Unless these guys are real experts and they've picked up a tell on you, any K or pocket pair better than 7 is paying you on that river. Any 7 is paying you on that turn... thing is, they're more likely to have a 7 than a K or pocket pair given the turn betting, so the turn is the place to shove it in and get rich. Even halfway decent players have a hard time folding a boat.

  7. #7
    Chaser Kataklysmos's Avatar
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    I agree that earlier on 4th street was the time to shove, I'm saying that a value bet may get paid and fetch some extra cash on the river or someone might think the bet was a high card ace and his pair to make the boat was good.

  8. #8
    Check Raiser
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    As an aside, here's an example of the bet-check-bet variation on the slowplay that I recommend using for trips (sometimes, against the right opponents, etc. all the usual caveats), at least heads up, or at a 6-max table when you get the flop heads up. I think the guy would have called me all the way to showdown with his ten, but I'm pretty sure he wouldn't have raised the river and given me an opportunity to get all the money in. I didn't know he had a T, though... when he raised the river, I figured him for AQ/KQ/QT or something of the sort. Point is, he might have raised that river even with no hand if he thought I was weak, but if I'd checked the flop and then started raising on the turn or river, it would have been a giveaway.

    Seat 1: Xopods (1,965)
    Seat 2: do it 23 (1,035)
    do it 23 posts the small blind of 15
    Xopods posts the big blind of 30
    The button is in seat #2
    *** HOLE CARDS ***
    Dealt to Xopods [7c 3s]
    do it 23 calls 15
    Xopods checks
    *** FLOP *** [7d 7s Tc]
    Xopods bets 60
    do it 23 calls 60
    *** TURN *** [7d 7s Tc] [Qd]
    Xopods checks
    do it 23 bets 90
    Xopods calls 90
    *** RIVER *** [7d 7s Tc Qd] [2h]
    Xopods bets 180
    do it 23 raises to 540
    Xopods raises to 1,785, and is all in
    do it 23 calls 315, and is all in
    Uncalled bet of 930 returned to Xopods
    *** SHOW DOWN ***
    Xopods shows [7c 3s] three of a kind, Sevens
    do it 23 mucks [Td 6s] - two pair, Tens and Sevens
    Last edited by Xopods; 02-06-2009 at 11:34 AM.

  9. #9
    Fish Food
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    Thanks guys, especially XOPODS for his analysis. Only been playing texas hold'em for a couple of months and mostly live games.

    In the end I went all in and they both called (turns out they both had full houses). I was not convinced that I played the hand as well as I could have and mostly won the pot on dumb luck. It set me up for the rest of the tournament. Incidentally I also managed to get Quads again. I got Quad Aces when two other guys went all in. The table was not happy I will remember to try the bet-check-bet pattern next time I am going for the trap.

    Apologies about screwing up the description, first post here.


    cheers guys

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