QJ, Three handed in 10 man SNG

**classickred** · 10-28-2007

I raised because I wanted to steal...bad position or amount given my stack? Should I have folded to the push?

PokerStars No Limit Hold-em Tourney ($3.00+$0.40), Big Blind is t600 (3 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from triple-t
(Format: PokerForums.org)

saw flop|saw showdown

BB (t9008)
Hero (t2998)
SB (t2994)
Hero is Button with

.
Pre-Flop: (Pot=t150)
Hero raises to t1500, 1 folds, BB raises to t4200, Hero calls All-In.

Flop: (Pot=t6346)

(2 players, 1 all-in)

Turn: (Pot=t6346)

(2 players, 1 all-in)

River: (Pot=t6346)

(2 players, 1 all-in)

Results in white below:
BB has As 6s, Two Pairs, Aces and Tens
Hero has Qd JavaScript, A Pair of Tens
BB wins t6346 from Main Pot.

**triple-t** · 10-29-2007

Don't even bother with the 2.5 BB raise. Either put it all in the middle and make them call for all your chips, or muck the hand.

**triple-t** · 10-29-2007

To expand on my reply above, once you (or all remaining players in a hand) get below 10 BBs in a SnG, Independent Chip Modelling (ICM) governs your play. ICM is a push/fold mentality for maximizing $ev in any given situation. Let's look at this one.

With 3 players left, everyone has already won $6 (3rd place money) and are now fighting for the $12 left in the prize pool. You have 2998 out of 15000 chips for roughly 20% equity. Your $ equity is currently $2.40.

You have to estimate each remaining player's likelihood of calling your all-in bet. For this example, given the remaining stacks, I'll put SB calling your all-in with the top 20% of hands. BB will call 10% when SB calls, but 40% when SB folds.

You fold - you now have 2948/15000 chips or $2.36 equity.

You push - Now we have to calculate the % of time on each of the possible scenarios.

A. Both SB and BB folds. - Since SB folds 80% and BB folds 60%, this happens 48% of the time. You'll win the pot and have 3998/15000 chips or $3.20 equity.

B. SB folds, BB calls - SB folds 80% and BB calls 40% so this happens 32% of the time. Now we figure out our equity against BB's range. We have 47.133% equity which in a 6346 chips pot = 2991 chips or $2.39 equity

C. SB calls, BB folds - This happens 18% of the time. Our pot equity is 41.046. Pot size is 6638 which gives us 2725 chips or $2.18 equity

D. SB and BB call - This happens the remaining 2% of the time. We have 22.291% in a pot of 8990 which is 2004 chips or $1.60 equity.

Now we average the outcomes:
3.20 * .48 = $1.536
2.39 * .32 = $0.7648
2.18 * .18 = $0.3924
1.60 * .02 = $0.032

Add those up and our $ev for pushing is $2.725 vs. $2.36 for folding. This is a definite push if SB and BB ranges are similar to what I have used.

**classickred** · 10-29-2007

thanks for the extended reply, it answered a few questions I had before I asked them.

I think my biggest leak right now is short handed play with med-low stacks. I find that while I have little trouble placing in a 10 man SnG, it's usually either 3rd or 1st, indicating to me that I'm good switching gears to heads up, but just need to get over the third place hurdle when I'm coming in shortstacked.

Do you still recommend shoving all in pf when you're dealt a monster like KK or AA? I'd naturally think it'd be more +ev to make a decent raise, and shove on the flop hoping they've hit something.

Also, what's a good range for shoving pf when 3 or 4-handed?

one more question - where does the theory behind ICM originate? I'd like to read deeper into it.

**triple-t** · 10-29-2007

Originally Posted by classickred

thanks for the extended reply, it answered a few questions I had before I asked them.

I think my biggest leak right now is short handed play with med-low stacks. I find that while I have little trouble placing in a 10 man SnG, it's usually either 3rd or 1st, indicating to me that I'm good switching gears to heads up, but just need to get over the third place hurdle when I'm coming in shortstacked.

I seem to get slightly more firsts than seconds, and a lot more seconds than thirds. I'm not sure why, though.

Originally Posted by classickred

Do you still recommend shoving all in pf when you're dealt a monster like KK or AA? I'd naturally think it'd be more +ev to make a decent raise, and shove on the flop hoping they've hit something.

If I'm in push/fold mode, then those are my only two options. If I've been pushing/folding, then it's more +ev to shove your monsters because if you've been shoving every time, it looks like a trap to throw out a normal raise.

Originally Posted by classickred

Also, what's a good range for shoving pf when 3 or 4-handed?

It all depends on how likely the other players are to call, the stack sizes, the position of each stack size, etc. There are situations where you'd push the top 10% of hands, and others where you'd push ATC.

Originally Posted by classickred

one more question - where does the theory behind ICM originate? I'd like to read deeper into it.

There's a lot of good information about ICM out there. Check out the following links...

What is ICM?

The 2+2 Forums: ICM

Also, searching on 4 will provide a lot of information as well.

**piv** · 10-29-2007

You end up getting a pretty good feel for when to push or fold. Often it's worth letting a semi decent hand go if you have a medium stack if you've shoved your button the last 4/5 times, since the fold equity you'll gain next time is worth more than if you were to get called with your junk holding.

I know I've posted this a ton but Alex's SNG video is excellent : Stage6 · Videos

**sb944** · 10-29-2007

This situation perfectly highlights why pushing when below 10BB is optimal. In this case you have a terrible chip position if you fold to his re-raise, plus you have pot odds to call it anyway, so you must sensibly call and hope to hit. So if you are going to call his re-raise, why not raise all in to start with? You are no worse off if he calls, but give both players a much narrower range to call with if you go all in, thus increasing your fold equity quite a bit. He may have folded A6s here, but probably not still.

On whether or not to push QJo here, I think it's a little marginal, but I'd be pushing. Get an SNG tool like SNG Wizard to confirm this (has a 30 day trial and can look over previous history), but I think that QJo is a push here. You'll get the blinds most often and have some showdown value when you don't. The SNG tools are excellent teachers of ICM and will show you some very interesting suggestions about pushing or folding. Like when it's a good time to push 53o or fold JJ.

Interesting question on AA/KK there, because what you did actually invoked a re-raise from a weakish hand here, so this would have had the result you wanted of not forcing a mediocre hand to fold to AA/KK. However, if you had been raising all in a couple of times and suddenly did a min-raise like this, good players will pick up that it could be a trick and probably fold anyway. It's a little more complicated than straight ICM which would suggest push all in with QJo or AA

**piv** · 10-29-2007

Personally I adhere to 7 or 8 bb before going into push fold since often you're not on the bubble when stacks are approaching the 10bb mark.

**sb944** · 10-29-2007

No I'd stick with 10BB's myself, it's a good rule. This is assuming a 10 man SNG right at this point, but it's probably generally a good rule for MTT's too.

For example, 6 players left (you said not on the bubble), blinds 200, you are 1400 (7BB, 9% equity), average stack is 2500. So it's most likely you are a short stack.

If you raise 3BB and a player re-raises you, are you going to call? If the answer is no, then you are now down to 800 chips or 5% equity. Even doubling up with the very next hand will only get you to a short stacked position. If you get called you also need to see a nice flop, otherwise you are left folding with almost no chips left, not a good situation.

By raising all in, you'll get the blinds far more often, but with only 1400 chips, that would still be an extra 20% in chips, which is a good result with many of the hands you are pushing with. And if called you get the chance to double up.

You aren't limiting your losses by raising 3BB's you are limiting your fold equity, no matter how many players are left. Which again is probably fine if you have AA, but not so good with KQo or 66.

**triple-t** · 10-29-2007

I ran the scenario through SnGPT and it says to fold given the percentages I estimated. However, this software will only take into account 1 person calling, not 2. Either way, it was very close (less than 1% $ev difference)

PokerForums.org

Welcome to PokerForums.org

Thread: QJ, Three handed in 10 man SNG

LinkBack

Thread Tools

Display