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08-13-2007, 06:13 PM
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Poker Professional
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Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,509
Limits Played: Play Money
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4/180, 75/150 blinds. Top two pair
This hand came up shortly after I doubled up with AJ vs K9s. I think I played it pretty well, except for the turn, which I explained why I played it that way. I'd like opinions on my line here. Yeah, go ahead and bash the turn bet. There will probably be some debate as to whether I should have folded PF. Anyway, I'll post results after some discussion.
Read on villain: Villain had joined the table shortly before the break. From what I saw, he was slightly better than the typical small-stakes player. Slowplays too much, plays weaker than normal hands, but he wasn't afraid to stick in a PF raise on a solid holding.
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t150 (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)
saw flop| saw showdown
MP2 (t6390)
CO (t3247)
Hero (t5040)
SB (t3265)
BB (t1490)
UTG (t8300)
UTG+1 =#A500AF(Villain)/ (t6975)
MP1 (t5770)
Preflop: Hero is Button with 6  , A  .
1 fold, UTG+1 =#A500AF(Villain)/ calls t150, MP1 calls t150, 2 folds, Hero calls t150, 1 fold, BB checks.
The table since the break had been a pretty aggressive one. I just doubled up a couple of hands ago. I make this call given the 3.5 to 1 pot odds and the fact that I'm on the button.
Flop: (t675) 6  , 4  , A (4 players)
BB checks, Villain bets t300, MP1 folds, Hero raises to t975, BB folds, Villain calls t675.
Flop gives me top two pair and has excellent texture. I'm really only worried about BB having a draw here, but if he does, it's a weak gutshot. I'm sure I have the best hand right now. Villain doesn't have a set because he made a small bet. I'm sure if he had a set, he'd have check-called, check-raised, or made a big bet. If he had a big ace, he reraises me. If he has two pair, he plays it the same way he plays a set. I think his most likely hand is Ax where x is 5, 7, 8, or 9.
Turn: (t2625) 7 (2 players)
Villain checks, Hero bets t1500, Villain calls t1500.
I would have preferred paint to this card because it makes one of his likely holdings two pair. I bet out 1500 here. It is a little too small and I think I should have bet more. However, I had 2415 chips after this bet so I had an escape route if he made his two pair. Since he just calls, I'm certain I still have the best hand.
River: (t5625) 2 (2 players)
Villain checks, Hero bets t2415 (All-In), Villain calls t2415.
I knew after he called my turn raise I was pushing the river, so I pushed.
Final Pot: t10455
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08-13-2007, 09:20 PM
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Poker Professional
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Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,507
Limits Played: Play Money
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I like everything up until the turn. If you knew that you were going to shove the river if he called, why not shove the turn, unless you were planning on folding to a reraise, which I did not see as likely. If you did not want to shove I would have definitely bet around 2000-to Pot because you need to know he has a hand, and he wouldn't call if he had nothing, unless he is the typical donk in those.
2 running clubs leads me to believe that this guy was maybe holding 4c5c? maybe thinking you were just bluffing and that his low pair would win the pot?
I think overall this is just about how the hand would go If I had played it but, just a little more on the turn to get a little bit of information.
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08-14-2007, 04:51 AM
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Poker Professional
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Join Date: Sep 2005
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Excellent analysis. I wouldn't have called him if he check-pushed the turn. He shoves this turn, I know I'm beat to a better 2 pair or a set (77, though I didn't mention it, was still a viable hand for him to have). It's possible that he could have thought I was bluffing, but IF he was paying attention to the last 20 or so hands, he'd have seen that I folded 17 PF, I opened for 3xBB on 2 of them, and I pushed on the BB with AJ to a possible button steal. Granted, he's probably not paying attention as most donks don't, but even donks will slow down a lot of the time when an ace is on the board unless they have one (and he struck me as an ace donkey).
You are correct that  is a possible holding for him, and it didn't even occur to me at the table. But, that's not what he had.
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08-14-2007, 05:06 AM
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Mike McDermott
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Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: London
Posts: 3,109
Limits Played: $0.05-$0.10 NL
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He had a set?
AK?
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08-14-2007, 05:10 AM
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Poker Professional
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Join Date: Sep 2005
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I'll post what he had later today as I would like for some others to give their analysis.
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08-14-2007, 05:27 AM
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Mike McDermott
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Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 4,295
Limits Played: $1-$2 NL
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I'm a little confused. In your intro you said that he slow plays too much but then you say on the turn that you know you have the best hand because he only calls.
I'm also not sure why you say if he has a straight draw it's only a weak gutshot. Why can't he be holding 35 here? I wouldn't be surprised if that's what he had.
You can't have played many hands with this guy so I think you are WAY too quick to be making and sticking so strongly to assumptions about the way he plays. Someone could sit at a table with me for half an hour, see me slow play a huge hand vs a maniac and think I always slow play. (This is not the case, I very rarely slow play)
I definitely try and get the money in on the flop so I'd raise closer to 1100-1200.
I hate the turn card because it makes a possible straight and possibly makes him play 57 harder than he would have before, making you overvalue his hand. Betting smaller is therefore fine.
On the river I check because I think he has 35 and is handing you the rope.
(Also the backdoor flush got there, this is of little concern though)
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by WotaWaster
LOL. David "Double Barell" ab157 says check. Check it is.
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08-14-2007, 06:09 AM
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Poker Professional
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Join Date: Sep 2005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jharding666
I'm a little confused. In your intro you said that he slow plays too much but then you say on the turn that you know you have the best hand because he only calls.
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The slowplaying too much is one of my general rules for small-stakes players. They mostly check-call two pair or better on the flop in order to get a check-raise in on the turn.
When I'm playing in MTTs, I'm always watching the other players and I make reads based on how they play. It only takes a few hands to get a general idea how a player plays. After that, I take specific evidence from shown-down hands to refine the read. Sometimes, as in this case, I have to go with the general read with only a little specific information. The read may be wrong, but it's all I got so I go with it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jharding666
I'm also not sure why you say if he has a straight draw it's only a weak gutshot. Why can't he be holding 35 here? I wouldn't be surprised if that's what he had.
You can't have played many hands with this guy so I think you are WAY too quick to be making and sticking so strongly to assumptions about the way he plays. Someone could sit at a table with me for half an hour, see me slow play a huge hand vs a maniac and think I always slow play. (This is not the case, I very rarely slow play)
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Once again, I was going back to my general read here. I feel strongly that if he hit his straight on the turn, he either check-pushes, or check-minraises.
You are correct that I am quick to make assumptions about his play. Keep in mind, this is a tournament and there isn't a whole lot of time to sit back and properly formulate an accurate read. I go with what I got, if I'm wrong, I'm wrong and I update my read (notes) to reflect the new information.
Of course, in cash games, I have more time to guage how opponents play so I leave the general read out and go with specific information about what and how he's played.
I definitely try and get the money in on the flop so I'd raise closer to 1100-1200.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jharding666
I hate the turn card because it makes a possible straight and possibly makes him play 57 harder than he would have before, making you overvalue his hand. Betting smaller is therefore fine.
On the river I check because I think he has 35 and is handing you the rope.
(Also the backdoor flush got there, this is of little concern though)
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I really don't see how you can put him specifically on 35 here. I guess we could include it as part of his range, but checking behind on the river is a bad play imho. We are only losing to a set, A7, 35, 58, and two clubs. There are a lot of hands that call the river shove that we beat, so I still think it's +ev.
(Oh and he didn't have 35)
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08-14-2007, 06:33 AM
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Mike McDermott
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Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 4,295
Limits Played: $1-$2 NL
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Quote:
Originally Posted by triple-t
I really don't see how you can put him specifically on 35 here. I guess we could include it as part of his range, but checking behind on the river is a bad play imho. We are only losing to a set, A7, 35, 58, and two clubs. There are a lot of hands that call the river shove that we beat, so I still think it's +ev.
(Oh and he didn't have 35)
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I'm not saying he only has 35. That's just my guess at his hand.
I guess I'm used to playing guys that don't check/call down here without AQ+.
I thought you played medium-high stakes, my bad (I guess the 4/180 means $4 180 man then, didn't spot that)
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by WotaWaster
LOL. David "Double Barell" ab157 says check. Check it is.
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08-14-2007, 06:55 AM
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Poker Professional
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Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,509
Limits Played: Play Money
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I'd play mid-stakes if I had the BR, but I don't so I stick with small-stakes. I usually don't play in these 180s, but I had T$11 and decided to play a couple. I've never been good at MTTs so I wanted to get some practice in smaller ones before seriously going after the bigger ones. Beset I've ever done in a 180 was 6th back in January (Only FT I've made in these). My best finish in a big MTT was 8th, though I was in push-fold mode for most of the tournament and got real lucky a couple of times.
Anyway, I used to try to guess my opponent's hand, but I found that I was usually wrong and either spewing chips or not winning nearly enough so I now stick with ranges of hands.
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08-14-2007, 09:36 AM
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Poker Professional
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Join Date: Sep 2005
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Limits Played: Play Money
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After showdown, I could see some justification to villains post-flop play, but  was one of the last hands I expected to be shown down here.
I was only 19 to 1 to win the hand on the flop. 
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