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  1. #1
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    Default Good fold or too nitty

    Last hand of the night (for me!) at live casino, so I was quite tired and didnt want to risk the profit I'd made...interested if you think I lost value here. The only reason I stayed so late was because there was a huge tilt monster trying to give his whole stack away!

    8 handed ring game (.50 / 1), I'm on the button with AKo. All folded round to TiltMonster who limped in MP. Folded round to the cut-off, who had just joined the table. He raised up to £6, I called, TiltMonster called. Going to flop 3 handed with about £20 in the pot.

    Flop comes down:
    As, Jh, 4h.

    TiltMonster decides to go all in for about £65. The cut-off calls, i think for an age...and FOLD!

    I really wanted tiltmonster heads-up, but after the call from the cut-off I just figured my hand was no good. I'll post the results up in a bit, but wandered what people thought....

  2. #2
    Mike McDermott Av8tor009's Avatar
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    This is a classic example of poor preflop play causing postflop complications... you MUST reraise AKo on the button there... flatting a multi-way pot is just plain bad... you have to force your opponents to clearly define their hand, otherwise your position accounts for nothing. Since you messed up preflop and didn't know where you were in the hand I dont have a problem with the fold on the flop... instead of compounding your mistakes...

    That said... Tiltmonster has a heart flush draw, and the CO has AQ...
    Lead Columnist, BluffAway Online Poker Magazine


    Online Tournament Wins: 11

  3. #3
    Check Raiser Aces-o-8s's Avatar
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    I agree w/Av8tor that a re-raise of CO would have either got you HU or won the pot preflop but most likely HU with CO only since tiltmonster only limped and would be facing a raise and re-raise both with position on him. As it was the fold on the flop isn't my prefered course of action. You were getting beter than 2-1 with TPTK vs a limper and a pfr from CO who also likely wanted to play HU with tiltmonster! I don't have enough information to think CO has me beat and more times than not, AK has him beat and he's my main worry.

    I think I might have re-raised CO all-in since he didn't re-raise to force you off the hand - indication of TP but not TK (or a monster no worse than T2pr). If he calls and tiltmonster wins the main pot, you could still win the side pot for insurance and if he folds, he leaves 65 in dead money - not a bad result!

    I have to ask - what did you need to flop to not fold TPTK?

  4. #4
    Fish
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    Default

    Good point on pre-flop, hadn't even considered that might be the error! I think my reasoning at the time was that I had position and I could see if I hit on the flop. The flop was perfect, and had I not seen the action before me, I would have been fairly confident leading the betting. However, the massive overbet, followed by a call scared the crap out of me, and I bottled it!

    As it happened, tiltmonster turned up J4 for 2pair, and Co turned over AK! At the time the money went in I was behind, so quite pleased with the lay down. However, turn and river were 10 and Q, and CO won the pot with a straight.

    Taking your suggestions, had I re-raised pre-flop, I think tiltmonster would have gone away (not really what I wanted) and CO would have called. We would have split tiltmonsters £1 limp! Still, a better result than losing £6 I suppose.

  5. #5
    Mike McDermott Av8tor009's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by colinbradley7 View Post
    Still, a better result than losing £6 I suppose.
    Results don't matter... the correct play is still the correct play no matter how the hand plays out after...
    Lead Columnist, BluffAway Online Poker Magazine


    Online Tournament Wins: 11

  6. #6
    Fish Food
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    Its true really. But at the end of the day its always +EV putting in all your money with a set

  7. #7
    piv
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    Stu Ungar piv's Avatar
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    call pre is better than 3b, and snap call the flop.

  8. #8
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    I'm really interested in this aspect...I think the critical part of this hand came pre-flop. I originally thought calling pre-flop was the right play, mainly because of position, however I think I now agree with AV8. Had I 3 Bet pre, I'm sure I would have chased out the J4 from tilt monster. However, 3 betting brings a whole host of other questions...If I was 4Bet, I'm likely facing AA or KK right? If he 4 Bet me is it ever right to go all in with just AK?
    I would be much happier snap calling heads up after the flop (although I would be scared of A-J as this is really the only hand that beats me that would flat my 3 bet). Is it ever right to fold TPTK because your scared of 2 pair or sets?

  9. #9
    Mike McDermott Av8tor009's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by piv View Post
    call pre is better than 3b.
    not with AKo against a potential multi-way pot... you want to 3 bet here to isolate and fold to a reraise...
    Lead Columnist, BluffAway Online Poker Magazine


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  10. #10
    Check Raiser Aces-o-8s's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by colinbradley7 View Post
    1. However, 3 betting brings a whole host of other questions...If I was 4Bet, I'm likely facing AA or KK right? If he 4 Bet me is it ever right to go all in with just AK?
    2. I would be much happier snap calling heads up after the flop (although I would be scared of A-J as this is really the only hand that beats me that would flat my 3 bet). Is it ever right to fold TPTK because your scared of 2 pair or sets?
    1. If CO 4-bet and wasn't a maniac prone to wild bluffs then yes I'd most likely fold AKo. First reason to re-r CO was to push the limper off the hand and isolate the pf raiser. A second reason is to probe the pfr for more informatiion - that is if he calls your likley up against AK or a pocket pair 99-QQ but if he 4-bets that a pretty good indication of KK or AA. Don't lose sight of what your re-r must mean to CO as you have given the same or simular info as his 4-bet would unless your image is also upper-agg and loose.

    2a. A-J isn't the only hand that beats you postflop - With the action given (a 3-bet) I'd also include JJ (44 should have folded to the pf re-r). Is it ever right to fold TPTK on the flop? So much depends on who you're up against and how they present their hands - that is leading out, ck-r or ck-call. Mostly in position and being the pre-flop aggressor (last to raise) the CO will check to you for a ck-r or ck-call with AK. If he's a solid player and with an ace on board with a set of jacks he could lead into you hoping for a re-raise but the average player will slow play a set with a ck-call or ck-raise. With this added info, you have to decide if your ahead or behind but if sticking around with just TPTK, I'd be looking to check-thru to showdown if possible or folding on the turn if CO leads in strong (3/4-pot).
    2b. with the actual action pre-flop CO has no reason to think you have him beat or in a tie since you just called which could mean anything from a sm-mid pp, suited connectors or a weaker ace than his. He probably though his call of tiltmonster's all-in would end the action - as it did. Folding TPTK (and specidically AK which is considerably different than A-8 with the 8s being TP) isn't necessarily wrong but IMO it wasn't +EV in the long run - unless your up against a real rock in which case the times you fold and were wrong to are most likely cheaper than the times you were wrong and called into a stronger hand. I hope you followed that last thought - the flip side is calling the loose-agg player more often and being right!

    2c. "Playing scared" often means you're playing at a level too high for your bank roll and so instead of making good poker decisions, you start playing overly conservative and making mistakes with your decisions. Although those chips represent real $$$, once you're in a poker hand they should just be chips and your decisions should be based on playing good poker and not on how much $$$ you have at risk. When playing at the lowest level in a casino you just HAVE TO limit your losses BEFORE you sit down and play like it's already gone and you're now free-rolling with the chips in front of you. This is a STOP-LOSS strategy for cash players much akin to a tournament player's buy-in since that buy-in is already spent and he only has the chips in front of him to get to the final table. In my case I sit down for $200 (1-2 NL) and limit my re-buys to 2 or 3 x $100. If after losing $400 or $500, I figure or just know this isn't my night and quit no matter how soft or weak the table. Maybe the old girlfriend needs some loving
    Last edited by Aces-o-8s; 05-11-2011 at 12:25 PM.

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