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Go Back PokerForums.org > Strategy Discussion > Ring Hand Analysis > 100nl KJo in blinds with TAG CO raiser and a maniac

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  #11 (permalink)  
Old 04-02-2008, 10:28 AM
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Originally Posted by davidab157 View Post
I did check, turn was offsuit 9. Maniac minbets (LOL). How are we proceeding here?
.
You checked and the TAG also checked? Maybe he's more of a T-Passive if he's not even going to take a shot from position after you gave up the lead - or he's got the flush and decides to slowplay it. Have you ck-raised or shown yourself to be a trapper or is the CO just wimppy?

First I didn't like the check on the flop but it is another way to play the hand and no way is totally wrong - some are just more preferable than others! From that I would figure you are afraid of the flush or are trapping and if I were you I'd figure CO of the same thing. The maniac is an unknow still.

A minbet on the turn is simply a probe imo. He smells weakness in you both and wants to see if either of you really want that pot. OR A very aggressive LA would stick out a minbet hoping for a raise to which he would re-raise - he doesn't need cards now as he would be playing against 2 flop checkers - you see this more in tourneys than at ring games however.
In either case, you still have to raise - giving up another (almost) free card isn't going to protect your top pair. But a more cautious raise might work just as well as a more standard one (1/2-full pot size) - say about $10. It looks cheap - which it is - but it also looks like a sucker raise to keep the others in the pot. The biggest drawback is the odds you're giving up (7-1) to the CO but he's already shown weakness (or is trapping). This would be sorta like the minbet - a probe designed to flush out (pardon the bunt ) stronger hands or take back the lead and possibly the pot on the turn.

Calling the minbet is probably the worse play imo- raise or fold!
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  #12 (permalink)  
Old 04-02-2008, 10:36 AM
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Reason I checked the flop was I figure the TAG will check behind a big heart enough of the time, while he probably shoves over the top of a cbet. If that's the case I'd rather he did it on a non-heart turn where his equity dies.
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Old 04-02-2008, 03:18 PM
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Reason I checked the flop was I figure the TAG will check behind a big heart enough of the time
Why would he do that? I can only imagine he checks behind with no hearts.
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Old 04-02-2008, 04:07 PM
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Why would he do that? I can only imagine he checks behind with no hearts.
he gets a free shot at his draw with a laggy maniac to his left who will bluff shove a ton if a heart hits, not to mention shove when he hits with the or something.

Maybe with the ace he'll get it in, but I dunno these guys often like to take the free cards when they're given them.
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Old 04-02-2008, 04:51 PM
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Why would he do that? I can only imagine he checks behind with no hearts.
That suggests a TAG would never take advantage of shown weakness and take a shot at the pot (with position!!) then! Seems more like a TP (mouse)than a TAG (lion to use Phil Helmuths animal). And just b/c a LAA (maniac/jackal) can play any 2 cards doesn't mean he can't have a real hand. Most maniac plays are preflop and 1st in or re-acting to a sign of weakness (i.e a bluff!) but as discribed he most probably does have something resembling a real hand - he called CO $3.50 bet and then the hero's $19 re-raise! That's not a reasonable thing for even a maniac to do with garbage! Anytime a caller or limper calls a raise/re-raise the first hand I put him on is a mid-low pp.

Quote:
Originally Posted by davidab157
Maybe with the ace he'll get it in, but I dunno these guys often like to take the free cards when they're given them
Which is a very good arguement for betting out on the flop - to deny the free card and take the best shot at winning the pot right then and there! Perhaps your limited reads on your opps has me confused (they are not acting as cataogrized) somewhat but it looks like you've given up on this hand after the flop and are hoping to check it down which would be a very passive thing for a TAG or LAA to do. So this can't be expected imo.
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Old 04-02-2008, 05:01 PM
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Which is a very good arguement for betting out on the flop - to deny the free card and take the best shot at winning the pot right then and there!
He isn't folding ever. He will most likely shove being probably a coinflip at worst. Which is why I don't like it, I'd rather he got it in on the turn.
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Old 04-02-2008, 05:15 PM
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checking flop is good and should be pretty standard, and tag will check behind with a lot of his range. treat the minbet as a check and go from there. i probably check turn too since i dont really want to commit myself by betting here.

wotas strat comment is gold too.
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old 04-02-2008, 05:51 PM
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He isn't folding ever. He will most likely shove being probably a coinflip at worst. Which is why I don't like it, I'd rather he got it in on the turn.
If you were a TAG and in the CO position to a SB calling maniac and BB re-r 5x5x your ititial bet and was playing with a would you or would you not bet that flop as a semi-bluff after the SB and BB re-raiser checked it to you?
If your answer is yes - then the CO can't have the or he would have bet.
If your answer is no - what kind of hand are you putting him on then? Even with a made flush, I'm surprised the CO didn't bet the flop and hope it looked like a steal if he really is a TAG and not a wimp!

Anyway, your play is different than what I would play it which doesn't make either way right or wrong - only another way to go. Which is why I usually cringe when I see replys with "Standard" in them - very few good players play a standard game else they get too readable.

So anyway - how does this hand play out?
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Last edited by Aces-o-8s; 04-02-2008 at 05:54 PM.
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Old 04-02-2008, 06:57 PM
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You know sometimes it's alright to just call pre flop with a hand as vunerable as KJo
Vulnerbale? Vulnerbvale to what? Maybe getting outdrawn by an A high or a pair?
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old 04-02-2008, 07:03 PM
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Vulnerbale? Vulnerbvale to what? Maybe getting outdrawn by an A high or a pair?
Ya - those would be good examples! In this hand, our hero discribes CO as a TAG - so folding preflop is also a viable option.
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