QQ on a rag flop!

KINGJACK · #1 (**permalink**) 10-18-2006, 02:48 PM

1/2 Live NL

BB: Tight, Fast, straight foward. Can pull a few good and well timed bluffs here and there due to his image. Very good player in fact...

My image: Tight agressive in this session, but BB knows I like to move on limpers with godd position... I did'nt have the time to do it in this session but I played him 3-4 times before and we had a discussion on that around on cigarets... he said the players in this poker room are so bad, I dont have to make that kind of move. I can wait for hands and make them pay there.

Full table
I have QQ on the Button
I have 220$
BB covers me

3 limpers
CO makes it 5 total (he can have anything from 56s to AA)
I raise 18$ total
SB folds
BB push it to 35$ total
Limpers and CO fold

This guy definately have something... even if he thinks I'm trying to make a move on the limpers with a marginal hording, he said that this kind of move is simply worthless... so I dont think he would use it himself!

What to do here?
Fold
Call
or reraise (how much and why?)

I opted for a flat call

Flop
2 5 8 (2 spades) I have no spades

BB push all in!!!! ALmost blind... I'm not even sure he saw the last card dealt on the flop... WTF???? 200+ in a 80$ pot!!!!
He said no need to hurt you more... I like you... I push just in case you have the FD!!!

What to do here?
I know he can bluffs... but can he risk that much just to prove me I'm wrong to move at pots pre-flop with marginal holdings... and out of position... and belive me this guy knows the importance of position!

KJ

Eclipse86 · #2 (**permalink**) 10-20-2006, 03:37 AM

pf - flat call if u have the odds to play for set value. otherwise fold. in this case u have the odds to play for set value, so call and see the flop.

**assume opponenent has KK/AA

when he pushes flop like that, I just muck the queens and wait for a better spot. at best ur hoping for a split pot there imo.

your forgetting ur greatest read that u have on him KJ.. hes tight/fast/straightforward.. therefore he would not be re-raising with anything less then QQ here.

the alex · #3 (**permalink**) 10-20-2006, 04:12 AM

Preflop, you have to re-raise. The raise was:

A.) Small
B.) Small from someone in the CO.
C.) Small from someone in the CO with only one limper.

He's clearly just taking the lead and making a cheap button steal. He isn't protecting a hand or value betting. He's sweetening the pot for when he makes his postflop continuation. Definite post to re-raise.

This analysis of the CO gives the BB all the more reason to make the 3rd raise with TT+, AK, and AQ. He sees the same thing that you did and you look like you're making a move. He wants to either:

A.) Take the lead away from you who can make that re-raise with just about any 2 (AK, QQ, KK)
B.) See where he's at (TT, JJ, AQ)
C.) Get more value for his hand (AA, KK)

The guy's pretty solid and makes a move from ime to time, so all of these are very possible. If the guy has the postflop skill that you think he has, he isn't just shoving with Aces. He's finding a way to stack you and this isn't it. This is fear. Only Kings beat me. I call. He pushes here with Tens-Queens, AsKs, AsQs.

Why he can't play raise/fold hands like TT, JJ, AQ, and AK here is beyond me. I don't see his re-re-raise as the "monster under the bed 3rd raise" because the 1st raise from the CO was so inconsequential other than it makes KJ's hand look weaker widening the BB's raising range OOP. I've seen way too many people shove preflop with 8's in $200 live games- people I thought were solid players.

shalesey_boy · #4 (**permalink**) 10-20-2006, 04:24 AM

I think considering you have had a conversation with this guy about your play and your moves he must respect you as a player. I think the push on the flop is a message for you to leave this one alone as he has you beat.

KINGJACK · #5 (**permalink**) 10-20-2006, 02:30 PM

BTW Alex... I really hope he dont have 8s here!!!!

After a few second of tought I dicided he could be talking of the FD just to cover the fact he actualy was on the FD...
(saw him do it before. ask the other player:''you have a set?'' Actualy he had mid set and flat call the raise of his opponent... then opponent shoved the trun with TPTK and he instantly called to take the massive pot)

So I called, and he had AQ of spades!!!! Great... I was worried about AsKs!

turn came 5
river..... Sapde!!!!!

But it was another 5!!!

I took the pot but the 2 other players I respect, including BB, said I had to laydown here!!!
All the fishes replied all togheter:''Are you kidding he had Qs!!!!!!!

I was like: Dam it...

I am just wondering on what side of the table I am!!!!

Apparently I think like a fish!!!!

KJ

the alex · #6 (**permalink**) 10-20-2006, 07:57 PM

Nah. Anything that beats you isn't pushing if the guy's as good as you think he is. The push says, I don't mind taking down the pot, but worst case scenario, I wanna see both cards. It's a tough call, but a good one.