Hand 1:
I think it's fine to both bet or check this flop. There are good arguments for both. Bet for value. Check b/c you aren't sure if your flush draw is good, and that's pretty much all you have going for you, so you don't want to push this hand to hard.
I would have check-called the turn. I don't like the turn bet. If you were trying to get value out of your bet with an open-ended and flush draw (which equates to 15 outs or a bit over 2:1 to hit on the river), you'd need 3 callers for your bet to be +EV. All this is assuming the flush draw is clean (no Ac or Kc is out) and that some one else doesn't have a queen, thus splitting the pot when you hit the openender. Plus the flop was checked around, so there's absolutely no way to estimate how many callers you are going to get. Also note that the more callers you get, it's more likely the Ac, Kc is out there and it's more likely that another queen is out there. :/ Despite your nice draw, it might not be worth valuebetting.
If you were trying to semibluff the turn: You bet into 6 players with on a KJTx board with 3 clubs on it. There's absolutley no way you can expect everyone to fold to your bet.
Also by betting in general (regardless of your intentions to get value or go for a semibluff) if you happen to get raised (a reasonable worry on a KJTx board), you'd be forced to call the second bet because you have the draw, and you'd have put in two BBs on the turn with a draw in a small pot, not a great proposition.
So basically you either want 3 or more callers, or you want no callers. Having one caller is okay, but then you have to decide whether it's worth it to bluff again on the river if you miss. Then you'd have found yourself putting in 2BB in order to win a 3BB pot + 1BB from the guy that calls you; and you probalby don't want in 2 BB when the pot is so small unless you are very sure that you will win (you have a great made hand or you're confident your bluff will work). (This advice doesn't play to heads up though.
)
Getting two callers was probably the worst thing that could have happened. Most likely they called your bet with a K, a J, sometimes a T, a decent club draw, Ace high, or a Queen, or some combo of a draw and a pair. When you get two callers the likelihood that at least one of them has a made hand that they intend to show down increases a LOT. You can use your own judgment to decide whther your bet will win one out of seven times. I think I would have check-folded the river with no info on these players.
Generally I don't semibluff or bluff against loose players, b/c it usually isn't worth it. And I definitely don't semibluff 6 players on a KJTx board. Players, even loose players, tend to play hands that like that board a lot. AKQJ, and maybe even T's will call for sure. Clubs on the board make if even harder to semibluff. So you should be more inclined to value bet with your hand in this situation, but I listed some problems with the idea of value betting too.
Hand 2:
There was a great great, really relevant thread on 2+2 where drawing to two pair was brought up. Basically, the kicker DOES matter. Having a K kicker here is a lot better than haveing a three kicker, because you are more likely to win with Kings over fours than fours over threes. Ex: If you had 43 and hit fours and threes on the turn, any 9 or five kills your hand. Basically, when counting outs, don't be so quick to give yourself 5 outs with a two pair draw. You have to judge whether or not your two pair is likley to hold up if it hits. The same applies to overcards. In this hand, you also have a two flush on board, so hitting the 4c or Kc could give another person a club redraw or could already complete the flush for someone, so those shouldn't count as 1 full out. I'd equate the 4c and Kc to .5 outs each, maning your two pair draw might be about 4 outs. That is a very very rough estimate though.
As another example, if the board was Tc9c8d with 6 players, and you have AhKh. You have a ton of things going against you. Most likely there are draws out there that even if you do hit an Ace or King on the turn, people still have straight draws/flush draws going to the river. Also many players like to play Ax, so your Ace "outs" might give someone two pair. Also even if no one has a flush draw, an Ac or Kc on the gives anyone with a club a nice redraw. So do you like those six outs?
And as a note, a backdoor flush draw can be counted as 1.5 outs.
Anyways, I will find that 2+2 thread right now.
Flop call is borderline. The pot might barely be big enough to justify a call, but I might fold. I don't know for sure. If you weren't closing the action, it's probably a fold.
Turn is fine.
River, I would have folded to any bet. If BB bet, it's an easy fold. If BB checked and MP1 bet, it's not as easy, but it's still a pretty clear fold. BB was stupid to bluff into that many players, so there was no way you could have put him on a bluff. When I saw the river check, it looked like the BB was irrationally scared of the 8 paring rather than him just giving up on the bluff.
EDIT: Okay I found the 2+2 thread. It wasn't really as great as I made it out to be, but it's still helpful for some of you guys and showing why twopair draws shouldn't automatically be five outs. Pay most of your attention to Sftheif and GuyonTilt 's posts.
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...=&fpart=2&vc=1
Linear Mode
