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  1. #1
    Super Moderator WotaWaster's Avatar
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    Default Am I pushed off Top Pair/Overpairs too easily?

    Playing in a 5 handed NL Hold 'Em game:

    Blinds are .50/$1

    I have $60 and other players are similarly stacked.

    I raise to $4 on one of button with . Button and BB both call.

    Flop is:



    BB checks
    I bet out $9 into $13.50 pot.
    button cold calls
    BB raises all in.



    Another example:

    This time 3 handed game, again .50/$1 NL Hold 'EM.

    Button is tricky and I know winning player - $200+
    SB is an absolute fish - $80
    I am on BB with $160

    Button raises to $3
    SB calls
    I reraise to $8 holding a pair of jacks.
    Both players call.

    I immediately think that the button may have a big pocket pair/possibly AK and the SB must have at least 2 cards.

    The flop is:



    SB checks, I bet 3/4 pot and button calls.

    Next card is

    I check, button pushes all in meaning I have to call $130 to win $180(EDITED). I think there are only 2 possible holdings I can beat, pocket 10's or a huge bluff on AK and so fold.

    My opponent then typed in chat box - AK?, when you checked the turn it was a dead giveaway. He then claimed he had pocket tens. The trouble is the site I play is so passive that many times I have had this sort of situation and been called all the way down with QQ when I have JJ and so as soon as he called I felt I was beaten.

    My question is should I have bet the turn once a card no higher than a J came? How much if so, and how do I react to a call/raise?
    Last edited by WotaWaster; 03-01-2006 at 04:07 AM.

  2. #2
    Poker Hustler The Real DeCoy's Avatar
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    Default

    You have to bet the turn on the second hand. Go for 1/2 pot bet. He could be chasing AK himself. Don't play weak tight. you would bet that hand in an NL tourney everyday. Same applies here.

    The first hand I think you have to let go. One player says he has something and the other says he has you both beat. Hes probably on a flush draw, but either could be on AJ and have you dominated. I'm not calling off my stack on that.
    Trons: "...be a winning person first."
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  3. #3
    Fish
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    second hand: If I dont get a push after the reraise preflop I thinking im ahead........and almost defently know im ahead with the call on the flop......the turn does get scary......in my mind only thing he may have is QQ that beats me.....once hes says that AK comment i know he has a mid PP........thats were the gambling comes into my logic....I call that bet thinking he either has QQ or mid PP or bluff.....sets not likey not with that bet.....and if he is good player he pushes preflop after your raise with AA, KK. Now after thinking about it QQ would push on the flop too. Only thing im really scared of is a set and that is based on what I think he raises with.

  4. #4
    River Rat
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    Default

    I think you played the first hand fine. I would have laid that one down, too.

    The second hand I think you misplayed. In a 3-handed game, any pair is a pretty decent hand, and your pair was painted. I would have led out on the turn and seen what happens. If he moves all in at that point, I think you have a tough decision because you've shown strength throughout. But you conceded control of the hand by checking the turn, and your opponent correctly read that as a sign that you felt vulnerable and bet accordingly.

    Personally, I doubt that your opponent had pocket TT. I would have re-raised you with that kind of hand on this flop to see whether you really had something and to protect my tens against you just playing two overcards fast. I think it's more likely that he had a middle pair or a big draw that he was semi-bluffing.

  5. #5
    change my title babo bonchkid's Avatar
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    Hand 1 is fine

    If villain makes this play a lot, check raise the turn with air once or twice. Anyways, I can't see him having only TT+,AK in this spot, so I fire turn again. Probably check call a lot of rivers too, but I'm a fish.
    “There's no sense in being precise when you don't even know what you're talking about.” - John von Neumann

  6. #6
    Check Raiser Aces-o-8s's Avatar
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    Both hands smell of bluff. Why would a legitament hand scare off bets with an all-in? If you have the best of it, you try to suck out as much as you can - unless you're a donk who figures all-in bets are the norm b/c that how they do it on t.v.!

    An all-in bet - when your are NOT short stacked - is trying to win it quick without having to go to showdown. It's a "Just give it to me" over-bet that a solid player would only do as a bluff/semi-bluff or if the board is so threatening and he doesn't want to peel off one more card that could lose the ot for him - i.e 3 to the flush or 4 to the str8.

    I get stung from time to time - but these are calling bets for me! SnG Tourney recently I have and open with 4xbb (t200) and get called by BB. Flop comes up . BB checks and I bet 220 into 500 pot and BB raises all-in. I had TPTK so I called. BB has and I'm drawing dead and out of the tourney in 22nd place. Happens but while the BB got good results from his check-raise all-in, I still think it was a donk move. If I had missed top pair and was just making a continuation bet, I would have had to fold and he would have lost future bets.

  7. #7
    Fish Food
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    Referring to the hand above, I think this is the correct move by the BB with his J J J. Theres a straight and a flush on, so the best way to get rid of you, (you could have A K of spades) is to put in a huge bet. If you did have A K spades, you'd have plenty of outs to win the hand, so I reckon it's a good move.

  8. #8
    Check Raiser Aces-o-8s's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by King Jambo
    Referring to the hand above, I think this is the correct move by the BB with his J J J. Theres a straight and a flush on, so the best way to get rid of you, (you could have A K of spades) is to put in a huge bet. If you did have A K spades, you'd have plenty of outs to win the hand, so I reckon it's a good move.
    In the hand above you make a good point. Whether there was a flush draw or not in the actual hand I don't remember - I only remembered the Q and J and just threw in a 'blank' that happened to be the 4spades.
    Having said that I agree a big bet is called for but going all-in is still a donk move when a pot size bet would accomplish the same thing. The biggest problem with an all-in raise is that all exit strategy is gone and your tourney life is unnecessarily at risk. I don't see solid players making this move unless the appropreate bet is close to all-in anyway. Donks on the other hand do it all the time!

  9. #9
    Poker Professional Eclipse86's Avatar
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    Hand #1: Good laydown, at that point when the BB raised, it is good to say that at least one guy has AJ or better and has u beat.

    Hand #2: You need to keep betting this hand on the turn since it is 3 handed and no one has shown QQ+ preflop. So the only hands that have u beat here is a set (i dont see any 2 pair combos that would have played against ur raise pf), since it is a 3 handed game, someone having a set here is really rare. Also, it doesn't look like he could have a set by the amount of money he bet on the turn. If he had an overpair like 1010 or JJ on the flop, chances are he probably would have raised flop. So, I probably bet about 1/2 the pot on the turn thinking that my hand is still good. If im raised on turn, thats when I start slowing down.

    His flop cold-call looks like hes playing pocket 10s or 8s and is just afraid to raise you, because he doesnt know whether ur playing JJ+ or AQ+. So hes probably just gonna call you on the flop and see what u do on the turn. If u lead out on the turn, then he will convince himself that u have JJ+ and probably lay it down. If u check the turn he will think u have AQ+ and therefore if no A K or Qs hit the turn, he willl lead out to try to push u out of the hand.
    Last edited by Eclipse86; 03-02-2006 at 07:53 PM.

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