Irexes... you wouldn't lead there with AK/KK/AA??? You slowplay TPTK in a 7 person field when you were the preflop aggressor?

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With 4 people yet to act and that flop, I'd possibly be prepared to give someone else the chance to make a bet with their small pocket pair or AJ, AQ etc and then reraise. More likely if had AK or KK I would bet it though. However playing against someone in the same situation who I don't have pegged as a tricky player (on the tables I play) anything more than a token bet would start me thinking bluff or semi-bluff.

From the other perspective, I think the best way to represent strength to a table out of position is often (not always) to check. A bet here from EP just screams continuation bet.


I played a similar hand the other day with JJ and the flop came Kxx, the other guy overbet the pot. I folded and he showed AA (I put him on a weak K). It stuck in my mind because it was so unusual to see someone overbet something that was more than likely ahead (unless they are a maniac and bluff small and bet strength big). The default play seems to be (at my level) to slow play it a bit either with a small to medium bet or a check in ep

Ha not half an hour after typing that and just to show that I really would bet TPTK in order to "fake" a continuation bet.....

***** Hand History for Game 3511103677 *****
NL Texas Hold'em Trny:19947377 Level:1 Blinds (10/15) - Tuesday, February 07, 14:06:53 EDT 2006
Table Multi-Table(589010) Table #19 (Real Money)
Seat 2 is the button
Total number of players : 9
Seat 1: boovt21 ( $1510 )
Seat 2: dofnert ( $1690 )
Seat 4: AcesUp412 ( $985 )
Seat 5: Aruba63 ( $735 )
Seat 6: Irexes ( $1000 )
Seat 7: huffhi ( $985 )
Seat 8: Snazzk ( $975 )
Seat 9: tinkergolf ( $1270 )
Seat 10: Super_Ant ( $850 )
Trny:19947377 Level:1
Blinds (10/15)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Irexes [ ]
Irexes raises [60].
huffhi calls [60].
Snazzk folds.
tinkergolf folds.
Super_Ant folds.
boovt21 folds.
dofnert calls [60].
AcesUp412 folds.
Aruba63 folds.
** Dealing Flop ** [ , , ]
Irexes bets [125].
huffhi raises [250].
dofnert folds.
Irexes is all-In [815]
huffhi is all-In [675]
** Dealing Turn ** [ ]
** Dealing River ** [ ]
huffhi shows [ , ] two pairs, aces and sixes.
Irexes shows [ , ] two pairs, aces and kings.
Irexes wins 15 chips from side pot #1 with two pairs, aces and kings.
Irexes wins 2055 chips from the main pot with two pairs, aces and kings.
Player huffhi finished in 371 place
huffhi has left the table.

Irexes, it seems to me that the default play is to slow play powerful hands from EP after you've made a PF raise would be something everybody would pick up on. As you stated earlier, the guy with AA who over bet the pot into the Kxx board got you hooked because of this.

I guess whta I"m saying is that I can respect your reasons for not making a continuation bet, the reasoning starts to die down when you start suggesting somebody should also value bet a hand post flop that they raised PF with, especially when it seems to have worked so well, not only for you (in the above hand, but for the other guy with AA). Early in a tournament, I think there are too many people willing to call you down with second (and sometimes not even that) or third best hand. Such people help get us a decent stack by the time we need it.

I like slow playing true monsters...flopped nut flushes, flopped boats and maybe the flopped nut str8 if the board is rainbow. I slow play these hands to give somebody a chance to catch up and possibly bet off their stack to me. Hands like Mid trips, TPTK, an overpair I don't like to slow play because people will hopefully call anyway, but if they do it's their mistake if they draw out on me, not mine. If I flop TPTK and I slow play it, then the odds are a fish will draw out and that would be my fault becaue I didn't take the odds away from them.

Obviously, my abilities are lacking and maybe I should start slowplaying more hands like that. This could be one of the holes in my game that I need to plug. I guess I need more convincing that this is the best way to handle the situation.

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Trons
JstTrons
Toyotatruck

I think you're getting backwards what I'm suggesting Trons, I'm saying that in order to make a move that throws off the opponents it's necessary to know what the majority of people do in certain circumstances. To me your bet on the flop with AJ screamed continuation as there were enough people that had you had AA, KK, AK you would have felt comfortable checking (this is what most people do).

To take this logic further, I would usually bet this flop with KK or AA in order to appear to be making a continuation bet.

Sometimes however I will check strength here with AA or KK or TPTK in the right circumstances. I'm not suggesting waiting for the turn to make a move with that many players, I'm suggesting that in EP it's sometimes better (in the long run and at the right table and with the right flop) to check and build pot and then reraise big with strength, rather than bet take down a smaller pot.

However in circumstaces with a smaller number of players like the hand I've posted above I've raised with TPTK in order to appear to be making a continuation bet and I would do this the vast majority of times.

I agree that the default play in ep v multiple opponents with a big hand is the slowplay for many people which is why I reserve it for a specific set of circumstances ie ep with multiple (more than 3) opponents, an appropriate flop and non-passive players (particularly the one who will be last to act).

It probably seems like I'm saying exactly the opposite things about the same situation, but I think that it is the tiny differences which I really struggle to articulate about the game that can make all the difference about what is the correct play.

If the above is gibberish then I apologise, I'm trying to explain to myself as much as you chaps why I do certain things in as Beavis' previous sig said "superficially similar situations".

(And for the record, I didn't call the guy with AA I folded)

Apologies Trons if I seem to be criticising you for not getting what I'm saying, I just reread myself and am not entirely clear

No reason to apologize, I have ask for criticsm and I want it. I'm begining to think that it's the small details that are holding me up from being a decent tournament player. That's one of the reasons I post these HHs.

I'm reading HoH and while that's fine, he can only cover a very limited amount of examples in his books. Combine that with the fact that I'm not sure I'm getting everything I'm reading (as my HHs show) and he does a very good job of painting broad strokes in his books, applying them to specific situations has sometimes left me scratching my head.

I've been trying to (because of the lower limits I'm playing at) leave the trickier type moves such as slow playing hands for a few very select type of circumstances. I also prefer those circumstances come later in a tournament where I've already established myself as somebody who plays str8 forward...I'm hoping by this time, those left are the more observant of the players and the move will come as more of a shock to them that I was able to pull it off.

Since I see continuation bets as being a str8 forward type of play...ie: they are expected, I like to show them to people because they expect to see them. That way if I elect not to make one, they read that as true weakness...This may be having the opposite effect of what I want, but I know I always get cautious of somebody who doesn't make one. If somebody makes one, and there is a painted card on the board, the I usually give them credit for the hand and I had better have a hand to play back at them. Therefore I tend to make the same type of moves based on what I hope they will see...

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Trons
JstTrons
Toyotatruck

just check pf, it's way to early to be getting involved and putting this much of your stack at risk w/ AJo out of position. being aggressive is fine, just not this early. just play tight early and wait for 75/150+, that's when you need to get aggressive, especially preflop. i dno what else to say can't think right now, just stay out of the way early and let the idiots knock each other out, don't get involved.

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