I am trying to put together some detail on starting hands on O8b based on my PT results, and what I have read. Here is a quick look. This is not the last word on O8b starting hands. Much of the comments are debatable (and I am sure Steve-O will). There were no equity calculation made or simulations ran on these hands.

A2

In the loose passive games I like to play, any A2 is playable from an position. While you like to scoop, playing nut lows will show a profit in loose passive games. Just don't jam the pot with a low only.

Having a suited Ace in your A2 great inceases the value of your hand as does additional low cards or high cards. Hands like A23x A24K excellent starting hands. With hands like A23x with a suited ace, I like to raise in late position to build a big pot but limp from up front to let oppoennts in. Even with the beautiful A234 I want a lot of opponents. You have a great low hand with a good shot at a 5 or 6 high straight, or a flush with a suited ace to scoop. Let the lesser hands in and hope to scoop or 3/4 them.

The addition of a big card like A24K, A2KK (queens and jacks are good too) or A2 with two broadway cards gives you hand extra heads-up value and you can raise to limit the field. If other player call, that is fine too especially when suited or double suited.


A3 hands

A3 hands need help to play. A suited ace or another wheel card are required to make A3 a playable hand.

I hand like is a good hand. Just remember when you play post flop avoid drawing to the second nut low if your hand has nothing else going for it. A34x even without a suited Ace is also playable if the x is a 5,6,J,Q or K it is a fairly strong hand.

A4 hands

A4 needs a LOT of help. A suited is critical, along with a 5 a big pair, or two other big cards to be playable.

Example

or


Of course being double suited is even better. Even with the addtional help, A4 should only be played from late position or the blinds.

23 hands

2345, 2346 and 2356 are the only 23 hands I will play (not counting big pairs which I will talk about below). They are weak, and for the most part you need an ace on the flop to continue, but they have shown a profit for me.

The big hands

For big cards you only want to play hands with for cards ten and higher. AKQJ,. AKJT, KKQJ and such. Having a pair or suits greatly increases the value of these hands. KQJT with no suited cards in O8b a lot like KJo in limit holdem. You will often hit a flop that looks good but end up getting out drawn by the river. The big cards are not raising hands. You want to get in cheaply and try to scoop a big pot.

The Trouble with Trips - the Big Pair Hands

The AA hands

Virtually all hands with a pair of aces are playable in O8b. There is a lot of argument of the junkiest of these hands, hands like AA79 and AA98 with without suited aces. Many people say to play them from any position, but I throw them away quite often as they are hard to play post flop, and you usually end up fighting for half the pot.

When AAxx is combined with a 2, 3, 4 and a suited ace, you have one of the few hands I will raising and reraise with in O8b. Me opponents can call or fold, I really don't care. When combined with two other cards ten and higher and suited ace you also have a pretty strong hand. Any AA hand with a suited ace is playable regardless of your other two cards.

The other big pairs KK and QQ.

I consider sets to be drawing hands in O8b. When you flop a set to KK or QQ, there will either be a low draw or a straight draw on the board - and possibly a flush draw too. You really want to hit a full house with these big pairs vs a lot of opponents. I wont play a KK hand without it being suited, with two wheel cards or double suited. QQ I consider marginal and can be tossed anywhere but the blinds - an exception could be QQ23dsr QQ24ds in late position for one bet. Just remember that you are not playing these hands for the flush potential, but the flush can give you redraws if you flop a set and back into a flush that may be good.

There is really nothing wrong with this strategy so I'll just add my thoughts to each part


A2 is always playable for 1 bet, but when certain people raise it needs to be mucked if it has nothing else going for it. I have notes on people online: 1 only raises AA2+ the other player A2 with a suited ace and another wheel card. Obviusly when nits like this raise (or nits who only limp with these hands) just muck A2xx

Unlike Beavis I like raising a variety of A2 hands from all kinds of position. Of course, sometimes I just limp with them to.

A2 with a suited Ace and another wheel card I almost always raise

A2 with 2 broadway cards and a suited Ace I almost always raise

A2 with 2 wheel cards and a suited Ace I almost always raise

I raise a lot of limpers from LP with even less basically all the above even without a suited Ace

Another category I think that is overlooked is A2 with a pair from 33-88. Obviously hitting the set gives you massive scoop potential. And A2 with 2 other low cards, i.e. A268. You can again scoop alot of pots when low straights pop on the board. These hands are much better than A2JQ in multiway pots they give you a much stronger scoop potential. Where A2KQ is a hand running in 2 different directions, you either are going high or low, rarely both.

A3 hands I hardly ever raise since you will never get an A2 to fold.

Facing a raise I'll play any A3 with a suited Ace and another wheel card or a suited Ace and 2 broadway cards.

With no raise I'll play most A3 hands. the exception being A3T7, A37Q type hands. I'll even play those in real loose games. Percentage wise A3 will be the lone best low hand only about 10% of the time so like Beav said you really need something else going for it.

There are very few A4 hands I play outside of the small blind.

A456 or A457 or A458 with a suited Ace, simply because if a low is possible you are going to have a pretty decent 2 way hand

And from LP only A4 with a suited Ace and 2 broadway cards

I play a lot of 23 hands from LP but from up front I play more like Beavis. In loose passive games I'll play any 234 or 235

I also play any 4 cards 9-K from LP since hitting two pair doesn't make lows possible. And 2 pair with a gutshot is a good enough hand to bet and raise post flop


AA without a decent low is the most overrated hand in O8, hitting your Ace is murder, yes you have top set but so what? There is rarely no flush or straight possibility at the end and your Ace puts a low card on the board. The only AA hands I raise are AA2 and AA3 with a suited Ace. I will also raise hands like AAKJds or AA4Kds about half the time.


I agree with Beav's comments on hands like QQ24ds or KK25ds, not only does the flush give you redraws but helps block anyone drawing to the nut flush will only have 6 and 5 outs on the turn and river respectively.

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I find your response in this thread shallow, and pedantic...

I was very surprised to see I was +.5bb/hand with AAxx unsuited. I have an 80% VPIP with them too. I really expected them to be less than .25bb/hand.

They are a BITCH to play post flop, and I agree ver overrated.

I have had to fold them on the flop/turn a few times when there is a low already out and a lot heavy betting, figuring I am against a flush or a straight and didnt have the odds to go for a suckout. Sucks folding a set of aces.

Nice post here, I prefer to play O8b either limit or PL than most of the other games as I feel they are more profitable if you are patient.

What I have learned is how over-rated naked A2's are, unless they have other stuff going for them, then they are obviously very strong. Ever since I realized that the way to make money is to scoop, and scooping being pretty much my only goal in the hand my WR has gone up alot.

Playing PL is alot of fun too, and there are alot of really bad players who'll call pot sized turn bets with just a low draw. I think that is what makes PLO8 quite profitable, because of the massive action and people especially at blinds under 2$, making horrible decisions.

Honestly what do you guys figure is a good VP$IP for a limit player who can do well post flop in moderate to loose games? Is it 18-22% or higher than that?

my VPIP lately had been about 17.6%

I have seen people play a lot more hands and be profitable though.

In a full ring game I'm in that 18-22%, in a 6 handed game I'm 35%. It's strange because I know winning players who play 40%+ in full games. I think it is all about style and how much variance you can handle.

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I find your response in this thread shallow, and pedantic...

I used to play much looser and do well. Then my post-flop game tightened up, and I started losing. Had to tighten up a lot more pre-flop.

I used to play a lot of 23 hands, but they have been losing me money lately, so I tightened up to me recommendations aboves.

could you guys share your thaughts on starting hands for short handed games? I usually play HU-6ppl. its usually micro PLO, so if you only play lim, share the limit hands.

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what is a thaught?

Is it anything like a yute?

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