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  1. #1
    Dizzy_Fuzz
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    Default No limit cash game strategy.

    Im interested to know what people think the most important aspect strategy of No limit cash games is - I know a lot of players on this site are primarily limit but the few that venture into No limit must of had some success and I would like a broad range of opinions.

    Obviously there are things such as starting hand requirements but for a cash game this is purely situational, like playing something like J8 suited in LP with 4 limpers already in the pot, or folding AK in MP when there have been a raise and a reraise which would put most of your table money at risk.

    There are such things such as playing within your bankroll and I think im right in stating that you need 2000-2500 Big Blinds (Or is it Big Bets?) to properly finance yourself at a particular limit you choose since NL swings can be wild as such as 400 Big blinds up or down. I know ive certainly had swings this big and thats only playing 10c BBs.

    There are even aspects of table selection to consider such as how many flops is the table seeing, are they tight? are they loose? is it going to be a mix since its so low limit? or is it higher stakes? is there a lot of mind games going on.... a number of things.

    What do you want from this session, what is your goal, do you want to try out a new type of style or betting, or perhaps do something different like bet the turn heavily when on a draw against a known rock who might let go off his top pair with top kicker.... do you want to make money or just play for a bit of fun for this session, perhaps your on tilt and you want to just play some solid poker.

    .... Im currently thinking about multi tabling the 1c/2c tables but then im thinking this will hamper my note taking, but then I think again and think its 1c/2c, how valuable will note taking be.... ??

    My main aim is to build my bankroll up and learn a few important concepts, so if theres anything I havent mentioned in this thread then please mention it, even if you think its irrevelant im trying to really improve my NL play, Ive got some books on order and am going to be doing a lot of reading up over the next weeks and less playing in order to sit back and review my poker playing.

    Ive been at a small bankroll for ages and think its time I moved up, it currently stands at $102 and I consider myself an average tournament player but I feel I really want to improve my cash game over my tournament play. My aim is to get it up to $200 and then review it from there, but along the way I want your thoughts, your ideas and concepts for No Limit cash.

    Thanks in advance.

  2. #2
    Lieutenant Colonel xxdemexx's Avatar
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    Default NL is complicated......

    NL is complicated......

    When played well you find that your variance is a little higher than limit and your winnings are slightly greater.

    Things like flop entry for a table effect how you play - it is not neceassarily bad to have a low flop entry. A good NL player tunes into and controls the table. I tend to take fewer notes and play fewer tables now. You get a 'feel' for what you can get away with.

    I think I've played 0,5 million hands at NL now (give or take) and it's only now that I am beginning to get to grips with the game....

    There are very different styles. Although I multitable I find it hard to play a Crypto site (mostly North American /UK) at the same time as a B2B site (Scandanavia) although I can play both.

    Its a very interesting journey.. Every limit plays different and you constantly learn stuff..
    See me playing $10/$20NL like it was play money

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  3. #3
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    6max low stakes nl cash:
    you should know the hands you are comfortable raising with. (so if pfo suggest raising 99pf but you dont like playing flops with 99, dont raise)

    you should know what the players will do on flops. @.01-.02 or .05-.10nl ex: many times last person to act on flop will bluff it, or player B likes to check flop and then bluff turn when a weak card come up (like 2,3,4 etc..)

    bluff them when they feel weak. they bet .10 on a 1$ pot on turn. you raise it to .70, they call. they chek river and you bluff it again and win etc...

    otherwise dont bluff them b/c they will call you with crap.

    Never fold AA,KK,QQ pf. QQ maybe if your a genious.
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  4. #4
    Sergeant Major dopemope223's Avatar
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    All i've ever played is nl holdem, i've play 6 handed tables at the BB 10c 25 and then 50. Some tips for this level is that i never try to steal pots in ep position with two to act after me, i try to stay outta positions where i can get outtplayed, i rape short money, i raise with alot of shit hands and try to steal blinds to piss ppl off, sumtimes i'll raise everytime one guy (particularlly short stacked) comes into a pot, switch up my play alot, ALWAYS BUY IN FOR THE FULL AMOUNT and the biggest secret where i have made a shit load of money, but i don't do this at lower limits(just BB 50c) goes like this. I play loose aggressive, and i only raise.. i never check raise and i never slowplay unless i want sum1 to hit there hand, and also at the 50c bb tables i'd buy in for 50$ play loose and take down some big pots and get my stack about to about 90$,, now some players buy in rediculusly short stacked, if your at the table with 90$ and everyone else has 25$ or less, raise 4 dollars every hand and if you hit part of the flop raise agian, oesd or flush draws i'll just put the guy all in, if i hit trips i'll put him all in, if i hit anything i'll put him all in, unless sumthing looks fishy and it smells like an over pair. And you'll be surprised how many times you'll get kk and get major action on them busting everyone at the table(this only works shorthanded too), but i've gone on some pretty serious runs doing this. good luck
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    Last edited by dopemope223; April 10th, 2011 at 12:31 AM.

  5. #5
    Lieutenant Colonel xxdemexx's Avatar
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by dopemope223
    All i've ever played is nl holdem, i've play 6 handed tables at the BB 10c 25 and then 50. Some tips for this level is that i never try to steal pots in ep position with two to act after me, i try to stay outta positions where i can get outtplayed, i rape short money, i raise with alot of shit hands and try to steal blinds to piss ppl off, sumtimes i'll raise everytime one guy (particularlly short stacked) comes into a pot, switch up my play alot, ALWAYS BUY IN FOR THE FULL AMOUNT and the biggest secret where i have made a shit load of money, but i don't do this at lower limits(just BB 50c) goes like this. I play loose aggressive, and i only raise.. i never check raise and i never slowplay unless i want sum1 to hit there hand, and also at the 50c bb tables i'd buy in for 50$ play loose and take down some big pots and get my stack about to about 90$,, now some players buy in rediculusly short stacked, if your at the table with 90$ and everyone else has 25$ or less, raise 4 dollars every hand and if you hit part of the flop raise agian, oesd or flush draws i'll just put the guy all in, if i hit trips i'll put him all in, if i hit anything i'll put him all in, unless sumthing looks fishy and it smells like an over pair. And you'll be surprised how many times you'll get kk and get major action on them busting everyone at the table(this only works shorthanded too), but i've gone on some pretty serious runs doing this. good luck
    The opposing view to this is that short stacking increases the value of AA,KK through multiway pots and removes implied odds ofrom ppl going for trips and str8 and flush draws.

    There's still alot of machismo and misunderstanding about short stacks that arises from the desire of ppl to bully. The fact is it is very hard to bully someone who is short stacked in ring because they are very likely to push with top pair. In late position a short stack makes a 4bb raise and will steal the blinds more often becuase ppl recognise the guy is all but all in.

    Deep stack work is for when you know the table and can exploit other deep stacks personal limits BUT... you increase your volatility which at the lower limits kills you through rake. You have to be very careful with ppls limits. If you appear a chip bully -ppl start calling you down ...

    At the lower limits I've short stacked and deep stacked. Short stacking wins you more money.

    A lot of these ideas of bullying comes from mnisapplied tournament theory where a short stack will put down near the bubble becuase h'es trying to hang on and survive. In ring this doesnt apply.
    See me playing $10/$20NL like it was play money

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  6. #6
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    I didn't have time to read all teh response so apologies in advance if I'm going over old ground.

    Firstly: learn the difference between the limits you play. I generally play .10/.20 on the Tribeca network, like you I switched from Tourney to cash, so been playing cash for about 3 months, and for the first time in my year long poker career (lol) I''m actually up!! - but nayway back to the limit thing: the difference between .05/.10 and .10/.20 is absolutely huge!! - I was getting so many bad beats on the lower of teh two that I actually deposited more cash and moved up ignoring the 2000 BB criteria completely. And I'm glad because it actually was alot better. I haven't tried .25/.50 yet because with xmas and stuff I've had to di[p into my BR

    Tables Selection: Firstly, never sit down at a ring game with less than 50% of the maximum stack to enter, preferably 100%. It can be tempting to sit down with $5 instead of $40 because it reduced the risk of how much you can lose, but remember it can also reduce the amount you could potentially win. It also has the affect that your medium - large bets will get called much more often because someone with a large stack knows that calling all the way to the river will cost them $5 max. So sit down with ahealthy amount. In terms of actaully selecting tables I've found the best thing to look at is stack sizes: I like a mix, I tend to play 6 seats max and look for maybe 1 x minimum stacker, 2 x medium 2 x large. You can make alot of money from people who sit at a table for a 10 minute gamble before bed be generally they are callstations, but sit down at a table full of them at your peril! - you will find that it soon becomes an all in fest and every player calls 1:1 pot odds with 4 outers.

    Hand Selection: I assume like most you are Tight aggressive? So teh usual applies. Don't be put off playing AK AQ AJ with 3 x BB raises in front of you. people raise with all sorts of cr@p like J10suited. Especially watch out for Flush chasers and straight chasers, there are some players at this level who will chase at any odds a flush and who only seem to play connected or suited cards. Expect anything!! - If you raise 4 x bb preflop with AA and the board comes 663 do not discount teh fact the guy could have 69 suited. for hands like AK AQ AJ raise as usual but you will not narrow the field as much as you ought to so if you miss the flop in EP look carefully at who is still in the pot before attempting a continuem bet.

    All in all the variance is awful to the point of making me want to cry, and the players or at least some of them are just awful, in fact worst than awful. Mind set is very important, an area i struggled with for months. If you suffer really bad beats just remember that you wanted the guy to call. winning .56 here and there won't do much for your BR players calling 2-1 pot odds on a 4-1 shot will, so thank them for calling and don't go mad.

    Its quite possible to make $500+ per month playing .10/.20 if you have the time and patience.

    I'm far from being a complete pokerplayer, even at this level but I have learnt alot along the way so if you have specific questions that I can help you with feel free to email me at AcenKingsuited@hotmail.com

  7. #7
    Lieutenant Colonel xxdemexx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keefter
    I didn't have time to read all teh response so apologies in advance if I'm going over old ground.

    Firstly: learn the difference between the limits you play. I generally play .10/.20 on the Tribeca network, like you I switched from Tourney to cash, so been playing cash for about 3 months, and for the first time in my year long poker career (lol) I''m actually up!! - but nayway back to the limit thing: the difference between .05/.10 and .10/.20 is absolutely huge!! - I was getting so many bad beats on the lower of teh two that I actually deposited more cash and moved up ignoring the 2000 BB criteria completely. And I'm glad because it actually was alot better. I haven't tried .25/.50 yet because with xmas and stuff I've had to di[p into my BR

    Tables Selection: Firstly, never sit down at a ring game with less than 50% of the maximum stack to enter, preferably 100%. It can be tempting to sit down with $5 instead of $40 because it reduced the risk of how much you can lose, but remember it can also reduce the amount you could potentially win. It also has the affect that your medium - large bets will get called much more often because someone with a large stack knows that calling all the way to the river will cost them $5 max. So sit down with ahealthy amount. In terms of actaully selecting tables I've found the best thing to look at is stack sizes: I like a mix, I tend to play 6 seats max and look for maybe 1 x minimum stacker, 2 x medium 2 x large. You can make alot of money from people who sit at a table for a 10 minute gamble before bed be generally they are callstations, but sit down at a table full of them at your peril! - you will find that it soon becomes an all in fest and every player calls 1:1 pot odds with 4 outers.

    Hand Selection: I assume like most you are Tight aggressive? So teh usual applies. Don't be put off playing AK AQ AJ with 3 x BB raises in front of you. people raise with all sorts of cr@p like J10suited. Especially watch out for Flush chasers and straight chasers, there are some players at this level who will chase at any odds a flush and who only seem to play connected or suited cards. Expect anything!! - If you raise 4 x bb preflop with AA and the board comes 663 do not discount teh fact the guy could have 69 suited. for hands like AK AQ AJ raise as usual but you will not narrow the field as much as you ought to so if you miss the flop in EP look carefully at who is still in the pot before attempting a continuem bet.

    All in all the variance is awful to the point of making me want to cry, and the players or at least some of them are just awful, in fact worst than awful. Mind set is very important, an area i struggled with for months. If you suffer really bad beats just remember that you wanted the guy to call. winning .56 here and there won't do much for your BR players calling 2-1 pot odds on a 4-1 shot will, so thank them for calling and don't go mad.

    Its quite possible to make $500+ per month playing .10/.20 if you have the time and patience.

    I'm far from being a complete pokerplayer, even at this level but I have learnt alot along the way so if you have specific questions that I can help you with feel free to email me at AcenKingsuited@hotmail.com
    This is interesting because its counter to what I suggest...

    But look carefully at it.... Keefer is concerned about callers....callers are what you want - you decrease the likelyhood that you win the hand BUT increase the amount of money you make.

    " Expect anything!! - If you raise 4 x bb preflop with AA and the board comes 663 do not discount teh fact the guy could have 69 suited. for hands like AK AQ AJ"

    This are Keefers limits - 4bb rise with AA at 0.1/0.2? ... no - just push - you get so many callers at this limit why bother with fancy stuff with 4bb?
    Interesting you can make Keefer put down on marginally threatenig flops..
    Indeed at 0.1/0.2 on Tribeca I would tend to play a deeper stack PURELY because of AA and KK and massive implied odds and the fact that blinds can not be attacked. Few use Pokertracker on that Network and the tables have very poor players - you do OK here by just playing deep stack and folding everything but AA and KK.

    As soon as the games tighten you need to short stack.
    See me playing $10/$20NL like it was play money

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  8. #8
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    I didn't say i'd put down the AA low, its Ev+ as far as I'm concerned, you'll win more of them than you lose so call big bets here for sure, just don't surprised to lose the hand more often than you would in a tourney or indeed at a higher limit.

    I quote myself 'Mind set is very important, an area i struggled with for months. If you suffer really bad beats just remember that you wanted the guy to call' - precicely what you say - I'm simply pointing out the frustrations associated with low stake NL hold em.

  9. #9
    1st Lieutenant Diggler's Avatar
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    Not so much a contradiction between Keefer, and your thread Deme, but which site are you playing at?

    To me this has a huge significance as to what you bring to the table.

    I play .05/.1 - building my BR up again, and once I crack a grand, which should be shortly, I will move up. Needless to say, on Absolute, I bring bare minimum to the table and push with top 2 groupings of hands, and will push 25% of the time with paint. Why? Most of the time, with my experience on that site, is that guys will call with Weak Aces, terrible low pp's and awhole shwack of crap - and yes I do get caught the occassional time by AA when I raise with AJo (yuck!) But if I play at Stars, I find that I need to bring at least 50% to the table, because when I win there, I win big - just like Deme's post above.

    So which site are you playing at. It might help to identify a site that you find fishy and fits with your playing style so you are not constatnly trying to adjust and play a way you are not comfortable with. By the way when I type this, I am assuming that you've haven't been playing too long, and haven't played on a lot of sites.

    Not to be rude, just point out that you may have great success with yor playing style on other sites, and haven't discovered this yet, due to insufficient experience.
    Quote Originally Posted by poker player 100 View Post
    However the players there are tight and just the flops are hit or miss IMO.

  10. #10
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    I play most of my poker on Tribeca's network using several of their Skins: Doyleroom, Vcpoker, PaddyPower. I've also played on the Prima network (didn't like it), and Eurobet when it was still a skin for Partypoker, that was okay then loads of fish, not bothered since they parted company.

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