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Thread: EP/Non-Nuts

  1. #1
    River Rat
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    Default EP/Non-Nuts

    I think that I am really misplaying some hands, and I would appreciate some advice. The general situation is where you find yourself in early position, with a made hand, but one which may very well be second-best. The question is how to bet and play the later streets.

    Let me give some examples. These come from live, one-table tournies.

    First, I'm in the BB with Ad9d. Blinds are 10-20. My chip stack is around 1100 and is above average. 8 players in the game. Six players have limped in when the action gets to me. I check. Pot = 140.

    The flop comes down JavaScript 9s 7h. I'm first to act, I bet 150, figuring I want to drive out any draws, and if someone has top pair, I'll get re-raised. Everyone folds, except for a player in middle position. He calls.

    I put him on a flush draw. First, he plays them all the time. Second, he seemed genuinely indecisive about whether to make the call, and that led me to believe that the flop missed him except for a draw. So when the turn and river came up blanks, I bet both of them pretty hard. At the showdown, he had J4o and took down the pot. As is evident, my read of his hand was awful.

    Second hand, and another game. I have 9Ts in the BB. Blinds are 25-50. Five players. I have about 900 in chips. 3 players limp in, and I check. Pot = 200.

    Flop is J J 9, with two suited cards (not my suit). SB checks. I bet 100, again thinking that I'll get re-raised if the third J is out there. MP folds, LP calls, and SB calls. The turn is a blank. I bet 100 again. LP calls, and SB calls. The river is a T. I bet 100. LP and SB call again. Showdown: LP has J6s, and SB has A7o.

    I know I misplayed both hands, letting my reads of the other players be influenced more by the fact that they did not re-raise me with the best hands, than by the fact that they kept calling my bets. I think my river bets in both hands were particularly bad because I should have known that I was only get to called if I was beat.

    I guess that leads to my questions about betting: (1) Was it right to bet these flops aggressively and expect to be re-raised if I'm behind? (2) Once called on the flop, was it right to bet the turn? In other words, how would you interpret the flop calls? (3) If I had decided to check the turn or the river and my opponents bet, under what circumstances would it be right to call those bets?

    Thanks in advance for any thoughts.

  2. #2
    Poker Expert NoManner's Avatar
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    You are incorrect in thinking that any top pair will raise you. Think of it from their perspective, 6-handed where nobody raised, TP low kicker is a marginal hand at best, if a person comes out betting strong they will be scared to raise but unwilling to give up the hand. Indecision does not necessarily imply that they are drawing, especially considering the size of the bet you made (you are representing at least TPTK). The same case in the second example, except you made a larger mistake in this one (you actually may have made the same mistake, but you didn't give enough information). A flat 100 bet on each street is not going to get you anywhere. In fact, you're basically screaming your hand with this sort of betting. The 100 bet on the flop is not necessarily a bad play, but after that there is 500 in the pot and you yet again make a 100 bet. This is a completely worthless bet that leaves you in the dark. This IS NOT aggressive play. I think one thing you have to think about is reevaluating your definition of aggresive play. The first hand is hard to analyze since you didn't provide betting on Turn and River, but the second hand, you made a pretty drastic mistake by only betting evenly on each street. Personally, I would not have bet out from the flop into a 6 handed board (1st example) and I would have made a much stronger bet in the second example, that way, if you are called down you know that you are beat. If you got yourself into the situation where you bet too small on the flop and you get to the turn and check, and then your opponent bets, the only circumstance where you are allowed to call is with a very strong belief that they are bluffing. Lay it down, wait for a better time to pick your battles.

  3. #3
    Poker Professional xxdemexx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mxp2004
    First, I'm in the BB with Ad9d. Blinds are 10-20. My chip stack is around 1100 and is above average. 8 players in the game. Six players have limped in when the action gets to me. I check. Pot = 140.

    The flop comes down JavaScript 9s 7h. I'm first to act, I bet 150, figuring I want to drive out any draws, and if someone has top pair, I'll get re-raised. Everyone folds, except for a player in middle position. He calls.

    I put him on a flush draw. First, he plays them all the time. Second, he seemed genuinely indecisive about whether to make the call, and that led me to believe that the flop missed him except for a draw. So when the turn and river came up blanks, I bet both of them pretty hard. At the showdown, he had J4o and took down the pot. As is evident, my read of his hand was awful.

    (1) Was it right to bet these flops aggressively and expect to be re-raised if I'm behind? (2) Once called on the flop, was it right to bet the turn? In other words, how would you interpret the flop calls? (3) If I had decided to check the turn or the river and my opponents bet, under what circumstances would it be right to call those bets?

    Thanks in advance for any thoughts.
    I'd agree with NoManner here.. your postion, number of calls and the flop is horrible. With six callers you're looking at at least a Jack and if you bet early and the Jack is right in front of you, the later players (who may well be playing suited connectors) have protection through pot odds for draws on flushes and str8sand there's the final nasty of a made str8. I'd check on flop and fold to a bet with your stack. I think the best you can hope for is a slow play which gives you two pair and you might pick up the pot. You've not even got a backend flush possibility.

    This type of flop is'nt even vulnerable to bluffs as the str8 and flush possibility might get callers if you were to do anything as extreme as going all in... It's not quite a dead hand.. but it's stop breathing...

    And finally.... don't even think about getting reads on someone who plays J4 off in middle position with prior callers...
    Last edited by xxdemexx; 10-31-2004 at 11:56 PM.
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  4. #4
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    Thanks for the advice.

    NoManner... In the first hand, there was about 450 in the pot on the turn, and I bet 250 into it. I was called, and I bet another 250 on the river when the blank fell. Having been called twice, I know I should have checked the river, and I probably should have checked the turn. Again, I just had it in my mind that he was playing a flush draw because of the history that I have with this opponent plus his indecisiveness on calling my bets, and I realize now how big a mistake I made in my read.

    In the second hand, I was actually trying to learn from my mistake in the first game, although I guess I screwed that up, too. I recognized that the size of my flop bet in the first game may have dissuaded re-raises and thus limited my chances to see where I was at by the way others bet in response. So I figured a 100 bet was 2x the BB and 50 percent of the pot... enough to signal that the flop had hit me, but leaving enough room for someone to re-raise me if they were looking for information about what kind of hand I had. However, while the flop bet maybe was ok, I agree with you in hindsight that the turn and river bets served no real purpose given their amounts in relation to the size of the pot.

    Thanks again for your help.

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