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Go Back PokerForums.org > Strategy Discussion > General Poker Strategy > Limit hand

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  #11 (permalink)  
Old 01-05-2006, 12:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dizzy_Fuzz
I know now its apparently obvious.

I could say in my defense I was hoping for a check raise but it never came. I had to bet that river since I didnt bet the turn... which was the biggest mistake here. I guess im not too focused right now.....
Look, I don't mean to rip on you here, but just to make sure we all learn something here:
Not betting the turn is a much bigger mistake than betting the river and calling the raise was.
Not betting the turn gives a guy with overcards, a spade draw, or a straight draw a free card that could cost you a pot.
The K of hearts on the river actually only helps someone with a K - of many cards that could have fallen it is probably in the middle as far as dangerousness.
Betting the river and then calling a raise is still a mistake, but I just want you to realize that not betting the turn is far worse!

[If I for some reason had misclicked and checked the turn, I probably would have bet the river because against almost all players I could have folded to a raise. If you can't fold to a raise here, the best play is to check and induce a bluff like Beavis said.]
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First of all you foul mouthed imbecile. I think the value of forums is immeasurible. Forums are the one place you can learn the game. Forums are a learning medium. The problem I find in forums are, your post. We are talking to hot headed, juveniles, who have no clue what they are doing. You have to weed through posts such as yours to get valuable information.
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  #12 (permalink)  
Old 01-05-2006, 12:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by growlers
Look, I don't mean to rip on you here, but just to make sure we all learn something here:
Not betting the turn is a much bigger mistake than betting the river and calling the raise was.
Not betting the turn gives a guy with overcards, a spade draw, or a straight draw a free card that could cost you a pot.
The K of hearts on the river actually only helps someone with a K - of many cards that could have fallen it is probably in the middle as far as dangerousness.
Betting the river and then calling a raise is still a mistake, but I just want you to realize that not betting the turn is far worse!

[If I for some reason had misclicked and checked the turn, I probably would have bet the river because against almost all players I could have folded to a raise. If you can't fold to a raise here, the best play is to check and induce a bluff like Beavis said.]
I fully understand that not betting the turn was the biggest mistake - it was a terrible mistake. Im just trying to get to grips with how limit works, what sort of hands you need to play and how aggressively well.... what style like betting out first or what not.

Yes I should of checked the river and possibly induced a bluff but this was a very bad example of how limit should be played.
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  #13 (permalink)  
Old 01-05-2006, 12:57 PM
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Your opponent check called the flop, it is unlikely that he will bet if you check to him for a check raise, unless of course you had a good read on him.

If he had raised on the flop then perhaps you could try that move for a check raise, but here it is too dangerous.
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  #14 (permalink)  
Old 01-05-2006, 12:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BwayJoe
I've found that, especially in limit that to attempt to check raise with anything less than the Stone Cold Nuts, is usually a mistake. I read it again and again from players I respect, "Bet Your Hand"
Check raising with the nuts is usually a bad play IMO, there are several times and places for a check raise having the nuts is usually a bad play unless you can trap opponents for extra bets. The most common place for a check raise is with a marginal hand, to eliminate opponents and or to find out where you are in the hand.
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  #15 (permalink)  
Old 01-05-2006, 02:04 PM
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Think ill stick to no limit...
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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 01-05-2006, 03:56 PM
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Knowing what he had, he had 3 outs on the turn with one card to come. He has 7% equity in your pot, or about .4 of a bet. In the long run, not betting here will donate .4 bets to your opponent (an average... you will still win most pots, but he'll win enough to average those bets).

If you bet and he calls, he is paying you .86 bets to protect his .4 bet stake in that pot, which will make you .5 BB every time (up to this point... you did give away 2 extra BB when he drew out on you).

If he folds, you get his .4 bet share of the pot outright. So no matter whether your opponent calls or folds, you profit by at LEAST .4 bets by betting. That's a lot making one play on one hand!

Even if you lose an extra bet each time he draws out on you and he raises on the river, that will only cost you .1 bets! Just goes to show you how much of a mistake not betting to protect your hand is.
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old 01-05-2006, 04:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phytopath
Check raising with the nuts is usually a bad play IMO, there are several times and places for a check raise having the nuts is usually a bad play unless you can trap opponents for extra bets. The most common place for a check raise is with a marginal hand, to eliminate opponents and or to find out where you are in the hand.
This is a great response, and the bolded part is what probably 90% of your checkraises should be for in a limit game, especially on the flop. Checkraising in limit and NL are one aspect that is VERY VERY diiferent between the two games.

Almost all of my flop checkraises in PT are out of the small or big blind with a hand like J6o and a flop of say J 2 3. Gotta clear out people with hands like q10, A8, 910 who will call a single bet but won't call two and either win the pot right there or get it headsup against a late position bettor.
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First of all you foul mouthed imbecile. I think the value of forums is immeasurible. Forums are the one place you can learn the game. Forums are a learning medium. The problem I find in forums are, your post. We are talking to hot headed, juveniles, who have no clue what they are doing. You have to weed through posts such as yours to get valuable information.
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old 01-05-2006, 04:12 PM
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I generally use checkraises in limit in 2 cases...

I have a solid hand that hit the flop, but wasn't the preflop aggressor. I want the dead money to fold here or put in several bets each, and you can usually get it capped.

I also use it if the aggressor in the hand is to my immediate right or two seats over... and I have a weak draw or a very marginal made hand. I want everyone else to be facing two bets cold, and if they correctly fold (as most hands should) it buys me outs when I'm behind and protects my hand if I'm somehow ahead.

I don't use it to get more money in the pot... it tends to freeze up my opponents if they don't have a very good hand, much more so then straight betting. You need to bet out to keep the pursestrings loose!
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old 01-05-2006, 05:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phytopath
Your opponent check called the flop, it is unlikely that he will bet if you check to him for a check raise, unless of course you had a good read on him.

If he had raised on the flop then perhaps you could try that move for a check raise, but here it is too dangerous.
Exactly the point I was going to make.
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