Flush Draw w/3 suited on board?

4Aces · #1 (**permalink**) 12-31-2005, 09:30 AM

I've come across this a couple of times and not sure how to play it.
Preflop I have Ax unsuited. Flop hits with all suited to my A. If I'm playing .25/.50 limit and two call bets in front of me I'm thinking I have slightly lower odds if I was drawing with two suited cards in my hand?
Any ideas what the difference is in odds for this situation?

WotaWaster · #2 (**permalink**) 12-31-2005, 09:42 AM

Odds of hitting flush will not change at all. You can still see 4 hearts out of 5 visible cards.

WotaWaster · #3 (**permalink**) 12-31-2005, 09:44 AM

However if the 3 suited cards on board are 7 8 9, you may have to give serious consideration that the 5, 6, 10 or J of hearts will make a 1 card straight flush a possibility, and that you may be drawing dead to made straight flush (slim possibility).

Do people make allowances for this when calculating odds?

Trons · #4 (**permalink**) 12-31-2005, 09:50 AM

The biggest difference between using 1 or 2 cards from your hand when making is a flush is the strength of that flush. Obviously, the nut flush is the nut flush, but if you have the J and there are 4 cards on the board, it's much more likely that somebody has a Q or K or A then if there are only three cards to the flush on the board. If there is only three to the flush on the board, then somebody else would have to have suited cards with on of the bigger then yours.

As far as drawing odds, it doesn't change a thing.

Eclipse86 · #5 (**permalink**) 12-31-2005, 09:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WotaWaster

However if the 3 suited cards on board are 7 8 9, you may have to give serious consideration that the 5, 6, 10 or J of hearts will make a 1 card straight flush a possibility, and that you may be drawing dead to made straight flush (slim possibility).

Do people make allowances for this when calculating odds?

yeah i do.. i usually dont chase OESD's when thers a flush draw on the board, and i dont chase flush draws when the board is paired, or OESD's when the board is paired..

Marm · #6 (**permalink**) 12-31-2005, 09:56 AM

You still have 9 outs, maybe 12 if you count aces, but I only give them 1-2 outs depending on what my kicker is... of course Only from the BB will I usually play < ATo, so this is actually a very rare occurance for me.

And yes, if the four flush makes a SF draw, then you should negate those two outs. But then you have to think about what are the chances of them having thoise outs, so I usually would only negate 1 out here, for 8 outs.

Marm · #7 (**permalink**) 12-31-2005, 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eclipse86

yeah i do.. i usually dont chase OESD's when thers a flush draw on the board, and i dont chase flush draws when the board is paired, or OESD's when the board is paired..

Thats Weak tight.... You still have outs... instead of having 8 outs, you now have 6 outs to the OESD... if you have odds, you gotta play. Folding is incorrect if you do.

bonchkid · #8 (**permalink**) 12-31-2005, 12:56 PM

It depends on your reverse-implied odds, but marm is pretty much always right.

In this situation, I would only call a bet with a draw to the nuts.(Although I migh bet with maybe the

if im on the button)

Eclipse86 · #9 (**permalink**) 12-31-2005, 07:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marm

Thats Weak tight.... You still have outs... instead of having 8 outs, you now have 6 outs to the OESD... if you have odds, you gotta play. Folding is incorrect if you do.

i agree.. but since i play NLHE.. u also have to take into consideration the amount of money u will lose on the turn and the river, if ur straight or flush draw hits, and someone else also hits a boat.... because chances are when u hit ur straight or nutflush, you will not be able to lay this hand down.. and therefore lose alot of money when ur up against someone who flopped a boat or a set that turned into a boat. So IMO its better to take the minimal loss, then to risk hitting ur flush and losing tons of cash, being unable to lay it down when ur up against someone who hits a boat.

who knows tho, ive never really have encountered a situation yet (besides those low limit nl games where everyone bets like its limit holdem) where the board was paired and i was given the odds to chase a draw.

in nl holdem u are almost NEVER given the odds to chase any draw

Marm · #10 (**permalink**) 12-31-2005, 09:32 PM

Thats why its called negating outs... you don't count the flush or boat cards as outs, and then you figure from there.

Ex, You have

Board read

And a guy is betting hard, and somehow you KNOW hes got a set of 7's. Therefore you now have 7 outs to the flush, not your normal 9, since 2 of them pair the board. But lets say you are only 50% sure hes got a set, and 50% sure hes got TPTK, Both of which would bet similarly on this board. Now you have 8 outs, since you can only negate 50% of each of the 2 outs that pair the board.

By negating outs you don't have to worry about implied odds as much as explicit odds. And folding jut because you MAY lose a hand is pretty fucking weak.....