Hi all,
as you know I'e been playing Sng's for a few weeks - just to a view of comparing them with ring (where I've spent most of my time) and also I quite like the idea of tournaments. As ever, I've had poker tracker working overtime and doing the maths.... my conclusions...

I should point out that I do vary my game. I am aware of all-in criterion on stack sizes.. how to attack stacks and blinds.. my HU play isn't weak (not by comparison anyway).

1] I really like SnG's - they are exciting and dynamic .. at one stage I was playing hardly any ring I got so involved.

2] My Return on investment even at the $5 (couple of hundred games) is 10-15 % (variance from sample). On ring it is about 60%. The rake I pay to poker stars is 10%. i.e approx 75% of my winnings. This compares with 48% at the baby 0.05/.1 limit - where I think the players are a little better (not much). These figures are consistant with returns reported at 2+2.

3] The hourly return on a sng is about 1/3 of that on a ring table.

4] I ran codes using different strategies (bit faster than playing) and I am getting predicted returns on the actual SnGs i.e I have more or less an optimum strategy.

5] I looked at these results and where things are going funny is the all ins.. essentially all-ins randomize the play. All you can do is reduce your own number of all-ins. Unfortunately you often lose the opportunity to enter a pot on the cheap because of a prior all-in or the threat of one from a short stack behind you.

6] The big problem is table selection. Within 10-20 hands I usually make a decision to stay or go at a ring table.. I'm not given this choice at a SnG and it has an impact.

7] SnGs require more concentration.. I am down to two tables as opposed to three for ring. Mistakes are fatal at SnG rather than just damaging at ring.

8] You have little or no chance to control the table. I will sometimes call a bet on the river just to make the point that I am an agressive player on Ring this is something you shouldn't do on SNG ....

9] You are playing the odds rather than the players - this is fine.. it's a skill..

10] I've played a few MTT (100-400 players) over the last three weeks and made top table three times out of 10.. this is what the codes predict (actually a bit better but I was lucky). I'm beginning to understand more Sklanklys idea of all-ins negating strong players.. and why pot limit is more skillful.

11] I have begun to realise just how clever the guys at pokerstars are.The increase in blind structure is perfect to let some good players get to the top whilst allowing complete gamblers a chance at winning - and hence encouraging them to stay ....

12] I looked at $20 plus events where the blind structure is slower - the problem is that these events will attract tighter players.. who generally slow down the game and force more all-ins later on..

13] You can't lay certain traps on SnG's - which you can get away with in Ring - simply beacuse they cost too much and good traps at ring take 15-30 hands to set up and launch.

I enjoy SnG's .. and I can see why they are popular. I quite like tournaments.. however I can see why complete outsiders win.. The real problem lies with game NLHE.. Poker games are said to have a lifetime and my view is that because the internet has sped things up, its close to the time when NLHE should give way to a poker game which allows you to more quickly differentiate good players..

This is a cool report. TY for sharing

4] I ran codes using different strategies (bit faster than playing) and I am getting predicted returns on the actual SnGs i.e I have more or less an optimum strategy.

This interests me. Did you write your own program for this, and how did you go about setting up the simulation? Also, what were the differences between the strategies you tested?

Nomanner,

I've had fun with the SnG's and I'm not saying you won't ever find me at one. Personally I get more satisfaction from Ring games, in my view the poker is more sophisticated and thats what I enjoy. I do enjoy tournaments and I do as well as can be expected.. I just came 26th out of 160 odd in a FPP event -had my all-in come through I would have been in third position and very comfortable for top table. - Although a couple of wild all-ins came off to get me to 26th so I shouldn't complain... I'll probably do tournies with FPP as I really don't want a baseball cap/skirt with poker stars written on it etc..

Hi Stevyy

codes were built up by my undegraduate project students - and then I mess around/ alter them.

Key scripts were taken from sourceforge (look under poker) you can essentially set up different players with starting hands selection and volume agression (size of bet) + turn river betting profile + plus random gutshot plays - weak on semi-bluffs. Setup number of tables, blind increase. Graphics are awful.

Different strategies: I play the game (a lot!) with strategies that vary beween:

1] Skalanskies system of going all-in with class 1/2 hands and little else
to
2] playing str8 tight poker with all-ins set at sensible limits.

between these limits there is an optimum strategy - essentially you use your stack to reduce the total number of all ins and play poker when you can. There's nothing unknown about this strategy - I think most good players use it instinctively (although their limit for all-in against the field is probably too conservative). I just log the effect of trying different approaches - i.e impact on my final position. In the past I've tried things like exotic card selection i.e betting heavily on mid range hole cards i.e J10 JQ T9. The theory was that you need to take on higher risk in a tournament - and this strategy does that - I was hoping that I'd either blast out early or secure a high place then be able to play tight- it didn't work - don't try it..lol

The programmes are ok but if you want a pretty close commercial system look at DDPOKER (do a google on it).. the engine isn't quite as good but the graphics are a different planet! I played with DDpoker for a few weeks and you can get out similar results (although you need pen and paper more as things aren't logged automatically). On DDPOKER I've made world champion(2004) about 6 times out of about about 50 attempts. Of course there's some distance between doing it on a screen and doing it in B&M. Also DDPoker does play very tight despite having different types of players and it is VERY weak on HU. - This is odd beacuse HU play has been the focus of a lot of work (checkout Sparbot). I beleive I have a 95% record against it with a heads up setting - thats not because I'm great at HU its because DDPOKER has a major flaw it its approach.

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