Tourney - 78s in MP

Method · #1 (**permalink**) 12-17-2005, 11:06 AM

9 player local $10 tourney, "Pokerstars schedule," 1/2 hour blinds, 2000 starting chips.

10/20. I'm in MP after 3/4 of the first orbit. Played two hands, miss and fold to some decent action, so I'm down to about 1800.

I'm dealt

, hearts. UTG limps, very aggressive EP raises to 200, folds to me. This guy will follow up on the flop 90% of the time with a pot sized bet, in or out of position, and likes to play almost any pocket pair very strong preflop. Behind me are two semi-loose passive players. UTG looks ready to fold when it comes back around.

I call. If either of the passives call, they increase my implied odds in trying to catch a good draw or two pair. If it is HU, then I'm fairly confident I can represent any A or K that shows up, giving me a lot of folding equity.

No one else calls, and we go HU to the flop.

I flopped an open ended strait and flush draw. He thinks a moment or two, and then bets 400; the pot is 850. I have a little over 1600.

Normally this guy bets out fairly quickly when he's missed entirely (there isn't much to think about when you get the flop we did and you have something like AK), so he's got an overpair or a set. If he's got an overpair I am a slight favorite, and if he already has the set then I am a 3-2 dog. And if I am wrong and he does have something like AK, he's likely to fold if I raise, and may even lay down a hand like 99. Given all of that and the size of the pot, I raise all in, thinking either I'd buy it right there or face at worst a 3-2 dog.

He called with 55, and caught a boat on the turn.

Should I not have even played this hand preflop?

Av8tor009 · #2 (**permalink**) 12-17-2005, 11:27 AM

no..
this person, as you just explained it, will bet out no matter what the flop comes out to be. This means that you have to be willing to call not only his early position raise, but another bet on the flop. You only want to stay in with this kind of hand when you can get in cheaply against many callers.. this just wasnt the time to call there... fold it preflop

bonchkid · #3 (**permalink**) 12-17-2005, 11:27 AM

First of all losing 200 chips(or 10%!!) on 2 hands because you "missed the flop" is bad poker. I think posting those 2 hands we could find some big mistakes. The blinds are 10/20 so losing T100hand means 5bb/hand. Thats pretty rough :O

Now for this hand. Fold preflop for 200. WHen someone raises to 10x the bb 78 is junk. If he raised to 50-70 then maybe we can call and see a flop. On the flop you are getting just over 2:1. You draw is a favorite(or 50/50) over most hands besides a set. I guess once you get this far, putting the rest in is probably ok.

Av8tor009 · #4 (**permalink**) 12-17-2005, 11:30 AM

i agree with bonch on the postflop part... since you are there already you might as well push against his opening bet.. you could get some hands you dont want to be against to fold.. then the only thing the person can call you with is a set.. which unfortunately he had.. the one lesson from all this is that if you played tighter preflop you wouldnt have as many difficult decisions to make later on in the hand.

PJ of TheGame · #5 (**permalink**) 12-17-2005, 03:48 PM

Yeah, calling 200 there is pretty ugly... Your reasoning is that you can bluff this guy out if he doesn't hit it and it's heads up. I don't like to go into a hand with my main way of winning being a bluff! The problem with suited connectors is that even when you hit the flop pretty hard (and you did) you still usually only have a draw... and one without overcards to back it up even. Tough to stack someone here... unless your semibluff gets called and you don't hit. But I'd much rather stack someone with a very good made hand against a weaker one (set v overpair) then with a draw that's only going to come in 50% of the time.

Jason75 · #6 (**permalink**) 12-17-2005, 07:12 PM

You seem to know the guy pretty well for only being about 6 or 7 hands in. I take it you play with him often.

I make these types of plays PF all the time . . . but only when I have solid reads both ahead and behind me and can lock up position.

Here's what I don't understand: if you're in MP, how are there only 2 loose passives behind you?? That would mean you're on the button. If you're in MP, I'd expect there's at least 4 players left to act behind you (CO, Button, SB, BB). Now unless you play with these guys all the time, that's too many players to have to wade through with virtually no reads with 78s. So I fold this hand unless I'm at least the CO, but more likely the button.

So here's what I'm thinking: if you're intent on making this play against a loose aggressive player with so many players left to act, then don't screw around and just passively call. Take control of the table by reraising to lock yourself in position and put the pressure back on your opponent. You can now win this one three ways: You can outflop your opponent, you can outplay your opponent after the flop (you've represented a big pair or AK here), or you can get him to fold PF. And the pressure to make a decision is back on your opponent, who likely pitches the 55 down to any sizeable reraise.

If he comes back over the top, then you made a bad read and it's time to take your medicine and get out of the hand. If a player behind you comes over the top or just flat calls, you're in big friggin' trouble - run for your life (then remember the value of position next time).

But my advice is to just fold in this position with so little information about the other players.

bonchkid · #7 (**permalink**) 12-17-2005, 07:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jason75

Here's what I don't understand: if you're in MP, how are there only 2 loose passives behind you??

I think he means 2 of the players behind him are L-LP. Not there are only 2 players behind him.