Played a similar hand last night. ..................Some people are such morons.


PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t100 (6 handed) converter

MP (t4390)
CO (t2300)
Button (t2745)
SB (t1400)
Hero (t1720)
UTG (t945)

Preflop: Hero is BB with , .
4 folds, SB completes, Hero raises to t400, SB calls t300.

Flop: (t800) , , (2 players)
SB bets t1000 (All-In), Hero calls t1000.

Turn: (t2800) (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: (t2800) (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: t2800

Results in white below:
SB has 5d Ad (straight, five high).
Hero has Jc Js (two pair, jacks and nines).
Outcome: SB wins t2800.

I ended up coming in 4th after some pretty good low M play to survive for quite a bit longer...Although I didnt make any $, I got great joy from outlasting this asshole

Something that seems odd to me...

people say things like "this is still +EV but this is MORE +EV".

If there is a move that is more profitable then the other move is by definition -EV. It costs you some expected value. Getting dealt QQ here is of course a nice big +EV... but how you play it can either increase or decrease your EV.

If not pushing is +EV vs pushing, then pushing is -EV. You will lose money in the long run by making this play... yes, the whole hand is still profitable because you got dealt a big +EV hand... but you would have cost yourself some of that value.

__________________
-You may not know this, but poker is a game of incomplete information.

that isnt true. +EV means that the move has a positive expectation.

Just because B may be more profitable than A doesnt mean that A no longer has a positive expectation.

WRONG. A move is +EV if it has positive expectation. A move is -EV if it has negative expectation. A move is 0EV if it has neutral expectation. Don't worry about it though, a lot of people here don't understand the difference.

__________________
“There's no sense in being precise when you don't even know what you're talking about.” - John von Neumann

A neutral expectation over what?

Holding Queens gives you a positive expectation at this point. That's a given.

Now you have a decision. Do you make a small raise or push?

If you say that either one will increase your EV, what is it increasing it from? You can't do NOTHING here. It increases it over folding, but we're not really considering that anyway. Either one also increases it over a flat call, but we weren't considering that either. We have two choices. One of them has an expectation of some number, and another has an expectation of some other number. Those are the only two options... there's nothing for the second option to be better then! It's worse then the best option, which means you are losing money by choosing that play rather then the best play. You COULD include the clearly wrong plays, and then it would be correct to say that it's +EV no matter which you do... but we aren't considering those plays.


Of course, what you said is true, but it isn't really applicable. ANYTHING we do here (except folding) has a positive expectation because our hand is allready so good. By your reasoning a flat call and then calling any bet on the flop, turn, and river would also be +EV because we'd probably still have the best hand a good percentage of the time. This does not make that a positive decision against the other two though, since both of them will make you more money. Making that decision reduces your possible expectation... therefore -EV.

__________________
-You may not know this, but poker is a game of incomplete information.

PJ, I think you are losing it.

Bonch was speaking in the broadest terms, and not addressing this hand in particular.

lol I'm sure he's losing it. I already explained it: Reread above if you still don't get it.

*And yes, folding is 0EV.

__________________
“There's no sense in being precise when you don't even know what you're talking about.” - John von Neumann

PJ, assuming you are playing against decent opponents you may vary your play.

e.g. when you have AA utg you may usually raise this is +ev, you may sometimes limp with intention to limp-reraise this is also +ev.

raising may earn you more $ over 10,000 hands than limping over 10,000.

the optimal strategy may be to raise x% of times and limp x% of times. this does not mean that when you limp it is -EV becuase you have not raised.

there are competing options which you can make all of them +EV

I understand what you guys are saying. I really do.

When we discuss EV, we're evaluating the expected cash result of making a specific decision, right? This is why Folding is 0 EV. Calling a bet with a 100% chance of winning is massively +EV. I understand this.

My point is that when we're considering a specific alternative, just saying that it's +EV doesn't tell us a lot. Anything we do with QQ here is going to have a total positive expectation. We know that, but it's not what we're interested in. We're interested in how this specific decision AFFECTS the EV for the hand.

If we're evaluating whether it would be correct to push here instead of playing it out, we would figure out the value of playing, and then the value of pushing. If pushing INCREASED the EV (from a positive number to a higher one) I would call it +EV. If pushing REDUCED the EV, I would call it -EV. Just because it doesn't reduce it all the way to negative doesn't mean it's still a good move.

Thinking about it, I don't think that's the way the term is normally used... so I understand you guys correcting me. But I still don't think the phrase "they're both +EV decisions" is accurate... if you have two possible options with one being better then the other how is it in your interest to choose the one with that is worse?

And Bobby, I understand there are reasons to vary your play. However, varying your play is to add an element of deception to your game. It still reduces your EV for this hand in a mathmatical sense, but it may induce your opponents to play incorrectly enough to make up for this, and it can increase your EV on other hands later in the session. Passing up a small edge now to exploit a larger one later and all that.

__________________
-You may not know this, but poker is a game of incomplete information.