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  1. #1
    Stu Ungar KINGJACK's Avatar
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    Default Multiple outs on turn

    .5/1 NL
    6 Max
    I'm on the button with KQd
    BB (very agressive) covers me
    I have a bit over 125$ and have a loose agressive image (had lots of PPs and A in the last 15-20 hands)

    2 limpers
    I raise to 4$
    BB calls
    limpers call

    17$ pot

    Flop
    10d 6d 2x

    checked to me
    I bet 10$
    BB calls

    turn Jx

    BB checks I bet
    25$
    BB goes AI for 100$+

    OK where am I...
    2nd best FD
    nut Str8 draw
    and 2 over

    Are my K and Q good for outs?
    Is my FD even good?
    Only outs I count are my A and 9?
    He can even be on a bluff with an A high and still be ahead!

    What do you do?

    I'll tell you what I did after...

    KJ

  2. #2
    PokerForums God
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    Default

    be more aggressive on the flop.

  3. #3
    Stu Ungar KINGJACK's Avatar
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    Default

    looks like a good idea...

    but you fold or call the river?
    and why?

    KJ
    Last edited by KINGJACK; 12-08-2005 at 07:00 PM.

  4. #4
    Poker Expert Antneye's Avatar
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    Default

    You are barely getting the odds to draw at your strt and flush. $162 in pot...$75 to call...Villain is all in so we have no implied odds. 2.16 to 1 pot odds. Odds of drawing to OESD and Flush are 2.07 to 1. But you cant be certain the flush will win for you. You can only guarantee that the 6 outs that make your strt but dont hit a flush will win you this pot....leaving you at ~6 to 1

    This is just to risky for me. Fold.

  5. #5
    Poker Hustler Jason75's Avatar
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    Default

    I get $148 in the pot and $86 to call for 1.7:1 odds, or 37% to win.

    Here's your problem, your opponent is playing like he's got AA or a set. But his play also smacks of a total bluff. Let's ask ourselves, what does he flat call out of position with, then smooth call a board with obvious draws on it, then check raise all in on the turn with?

    At first I thought, "he's either got a monster (AA or a set, maybe hit his jacks on the turn but I'm thinking more likely dueces or 6's) or he's completely full of shit because he thinks we are too (you mentioned your LAA table image)." But the more I think about it, he's likely got AJ, KJ, or QJ (much more likely with AJ or KJ than QJ) or 89.

    So let's quickly run through the possibilities:

    If he's got a set, we're really only drawing to 13 outs (2 diamonds pair the board giving him a FH) so we're about 28% to win and need 2.6:1 just to break even (but we don't play poker to break even, do we?).

    If he's got AA, we're a little better - 33% to win and now need just 2:1 for break even. Incidentally, this is the same if he's on the A-high bluff with something like AK or AQ (we can't pair or he's got a better kicker, and our non-dominated card gives him a straight).

    If he's on the AJ, KJ, or QJ, then I'd only count one overcard as an out (because the other might pair his kicker, and we don't know which) then we have 18 outs and are 40% to win and need 1.5:1 odds.

    And if he's stuck on 89, well, I don't see that happening, so let's just discount it.

    I don't even need to assign probabilities to each hand and do the math to tell you this likely isn't a profitable call. But let's do it anyway.

    I'd figure 50% AJ KJ QJ
    30% set or AA (about the same) and 20% A-high bluff (same winning %'s)



    50% * 40% to win = 20%
    50% * 30% (avg) to win = 15%

    Total winning % = 35%

    So a call here is slightly -EV.
    Last edited by Jason75; 12-09-2005 at 08:07 AM. Reason: Made a mistake on the outs for AQ, AK bluff

  6. #6
    Stu Ungar KINGJACK's Avatar
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    Interesting Jason...

    Lets here a few more answers...

    KJ

  7. #7
    Poker Hustler Jason75's Avatar
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    Actually, I made a mistake on my post above with the AK AQ bluff. It's actually the same winning % as against AA. Edited above.

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