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Thread: Played to weak?

  1. #1
    Poker Professional Girevik's Avatar
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    Default Played to weak?

    Here's a hand from last night:

    PokerStars 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (10 handed) converter
    Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with , .
    1 fold, UTG+1 calls, Hero raises, 2 folds, MP3 calls, 1 fold, Button calls, 2 folds, UTG+1 calls.
    Flop: (9.40 SB) , , (4 players)
    UTG+1 bets, Hero raises, MP3 calls, Button calls, UTG+1 calls.
    Turn: (8.70 BB) (4 players)
    UTG+1 checks, Hero bets, MP3 raises, Button folds, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls.
    River: (14.70 BB) (3 players)
    UTG+1 checks, Hero bets, MP3 raises, UTG+1 folds, Hero calls.
    Final Pot: 18.70 BB

    Hero has (one pair, jacks).
    MP3 has (one pair, fours).
    Outcome: Hero wins 18.70 BB.

    Should I have been more aggressive on the turn and river? With MP3 calling bets until the turn when he starts raising, I was thinking he had hit two pair or trips (a slowplayed straight was possible too, but I didn't figure him for being that tricky) - should I continue to jam the pot with TPTK here?
    Last edited by Girevik; 11-29-2005 at 05:58 AM.
    I'm CDO. It's like OCD, but everying is in order just like it should be.

  2. #2
    Fish Food
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    I think that you could have got 1 of 2 more bets from him with small re-raises but if you made a substantial raise he would have to have folded his fours imo

    Unless he was a total fish in which case you should have gone all out and jammed him to death!

    My two cents

  3. #3
    Poker Hustler Gryff's Avatar
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    looks like UTG+1 was on a straight draw and button was on a flush draw.
    I think you played it ok, maybe a small reraise on the river though.
    A good education is expensive but ignorance costs more.

  4. #4
    Poker Professional Girevik's Avatar
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    Default

    Well, this is limit so there is only one size reraise I could have made.
    I'm CDO. It's like OCD, but everying is in order just like it should be.

  5. #5
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    It's all about reads here, it depends on what you had seen from him before. He cold called pre-flop, which alot of these players do, if this guy is a solid player he may cold call with only solid hands ( 77-JJ) or maybe big suited connectors.

    You kinda have to give him some respect with his Turn raise.

    However, this guy seems like a maniac if you knew that before then I think you probably could have 3 bet the turn, and check called the river if he capped the turn. Now if on that river UTG+1 bet, you can fold easily here, pretty sure he had a straight and/or flush draw.

    Without reads I think you played it fine.

  6. #6
    Stu Ungar KINGJACK's Avatar
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    If you start to reraise the turn with top pair only VS 2 opponents with a possible Str8 on board, you definately search trouble.

    You shown streght both pre and on the flop and he try to push you out on turn!!! You have to belive him here... The only hand you beat that I would have played the same way he did is A4h... well not really, I would have fold PF...

    So without other tells, its a call then check call situation IMO.

    90% of the time you are beaten here but the pot size gives you the odds to call both that raise and the river considering you have outs and they can bot be on strong draws.

    I'm very suprised by that kind of play. He was probably thinking AK for you and a FD for the other player, but still look like a fish move...

    Sometime you have to stop wondering why your oponent played that hand that way and just take a note down!

    KJ

  7. #7
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    I actually don't like the river bet since you didn't 3-bet the turn. I probably would have just check-called the river.

  8. #8
    Check Raiser growlers's Avatar
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    Well, let's break this down by street as far as what other people might have and how ahead or behind you are in the hand. Now for purposes of this I am going to assume that they aren't complete idiots, but you can't always make that assumption of course.

    Preflop: your raise is good, MP3 and button cold calls - low to mid pocket pair? suited ace? maybe mid suited connectors? trapping with aa/kk?- typical cold calling hands preflop in limit (not for me, I mean for these people ).

    Flop:
    UTG+1 bets into the preflop raiser, so has a great but vulnerable hand, and knows you will raise and shut people out of draws- something like J10 or AJ (same as you). He could also have a set and want to shut people out since he think you will raise since there is 3 connected and 2 flush cards on board.
    He could also have a draw or a small piece and just testing the waters - not smart with this board.

    MP3 has position on the original bettor and your raise and he coldcalls - screams a great draw. If he had a set or straight or overpair he should raise here to shut out UTG+1 from getting a flush or straight. Raising here would put UTG+1 in an awful position with a draw since you might cap. So I would put MP3 on a draw.

    UTG+1 just calls and then checks the turn, any good hand he was willing to bet into the preflop raiser he should have 3 bet, a small piece of flop he would fold, so now I know he is on a draw and was just testing the waters with his flop bet.

    Turn: you correctly bet when the brick falls, MP3 raises - so there are two possibilities here, he has a great made hand and wants to build a pot - like a set or maybe KK, or maybe J10 and thinks you have an overpair. But again a good player wouldn't have just coldcalled the flop - he would have raised with those hands to get UTG+1 out. So again I put MP3 on a draw.A player in MP3's position might have as he colcalled with TPTK on the flop fearing you for maybe qq/kk/aa and now is raising for a free showdown on the turn with a nut flush draw and TPTK. Or he might have a heart draw with and is raising to try to push you out on the turn figuring you have AK or KQ. I actually would raise the turn here with those types of hands - a piece of the flop and a draw.
    UTG+1 coldcalls again out of position so you know he is on a draw.


    So here's the key point of all this yammering. We have figured out that UTG+1 and MP3 are both on a draw and there are spades, hearts, and three to a straight out there. More than half the deck is dangerous. They have already shown they aren't going way on the turn for any amount of bets. You have a good but very vulnerable hand, but most importantly you played aggressively and these people aren't going away and >50% of the deck may kill you. Your hand is good but not that good. So I call the turn raise and bet the river if a blank falls.


    I don't think this is a weak play, it is the prudent play. You played it well. It is only when he raises the river that I have to question my theory that both were on draws, I don't know I always have the guts to reraise here, but I might. Hard to believe he is stupid enough to think he will get you out with one raise when all he has is a busted draw. I would start to wonder if he had KK or AA. Now obviously, I read the result and MP3 is a moron, but you can't analyze a hand assuming that or there is no point in posting hands.
    Last edited by growlers; 11-29-2005 at 12:15 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Beavis68
    Quit playing poker.
    Quote Originally Posted by backdoor
    First of all you foul mouthed imbecile. I think the value of forums is immeasurible. Forums are the one place you can learn the game. Forums are a learning medium. The problem I find in forums are, your post. We are talking to hot headed, juveniles, who have no clue what they are doing. You have to weed through posts such as yours to get valuable information.

  9. #9
    Check Raiser Aces-o-8s's Avatar
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    I throw my vote in with Phytopath and Beavis. 3 bet the turn and if he caps, then check-call the river. If he's still on a draw, make him pay! If he just calls the 3 bet on the turn then still check-call the river to avoid a raise - you lose a bet when you win but you don't risk 2 on a raise and lose.

  10. #10
    Check Raiser growlers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aces-o-8s
    I throw my vote in with Phytopath and Beavis. 3 bet the turn and if he caps, then check-call the river. If he's still on a draw, make him pay! If he just calls the 3 bet on the turn then still check-call the river to avoid a raise - you lose a bet when you win but you don't risk 2 on a raise and lose.
    I would normally agree with the general principle here, but there are two people in the hand probably both on draws and importantly, you are in between them on the river action. More than half the deck potentially kills you - any spade, any heart, any K, any Q, any 9, and any 7, and maybe even any 8 or ten. I usually don't like to play weakly, but this may be the time to do it since you can end the betting by just calling the turn and seeing what the river brings.
    Quote Originally Posted by Beavis68
    Quit playing poker.
    Quote Originally Posted by backdoor
    First of all you foul mouthed imbecile. I think the value of forums is immeasurible. Forums are the one place you can learn the game. Forums are a learning medium. The problem I find in forums are, your post. We are talking to hot headed, juveniles, who have no clue what they are doing. You have to weed through posts such as yours to get valuable information.

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