i often find 5 limps in a hand, so i fugure im getting 10 to 1 on my money and i complete my sb with xx. also i get suckered in from the bb, often calling the min. raise getting like 8 to 1 on my $.

but with 4-5 opponents im rarely taking the pot down. Im cheking top pair all the way through, not even thinking of playing 2nd pair. so is calling with "good odds" in bb,sb smart for a rock like me?

Yes its smart to play them, your waiting to flop 2 pair\three of a kind or a straight.

I disagree with Cheif here. When you have 4 or 5 limpers your SB should only be played with premium hands (hands you would play from EP) and pairs or suited connectors 45+, 57+ with 1 gap.

playing hands like A5, K8, 79, J3s will basically get you into trouble.

#1 - you have no info on your opponents holdings since there was no raise and the 4th and 5th limper may be as strong as AQ or TT or as weak as anything. You have no way of putting them on a hand.

#2 - you are out of position the whole way and will not be able to maximize any profit from strong flops or use semi-bluffs or free cards to your advantage.

#3 - you will be playing hands that either get no action when you hit or are second best. This is probably the most overlooked aspect of playing junk hands from the blinds. If you have A4 and the flop is AT7 you will really only get action from another Ace and possibly a few calls from middle pair or a draw type hand. You won't get enough action to warrant the call for the times you miss or the times you play it out and lose.

I'll come back to this thread later when I have more time

Funnily enough I've just had this argument on another forum.

I agree with Steve here on all three points .. (and I've got a fair bit of evidence for it). However little you pay - you are essentially playing crap cards OOP.

Steves take must be on Limit - but I think it holds for NL too...

IMO you are better off dropping your attacking limits late to take the blinds than dropping your limits early because its cheap..

Yup, agree with the above. Remember, play speculative drawing hands when you've got the odds, play value hands for big pots against few opponents. I call in with Axs, Kxs, Qxs, any connector, any suited cards only. If the odds are good enough (6 to 7 callers), I will call in with unsuited A, K, or Q hoping to hit 2 pair or trips.

And I don't play it for top pair value (2 pair, trips, straight/flush draws only). I learned the hard way that when I have K9s in the SB against a large field and the flop comes 5 7 9 rainbow, it's all about check/fold. If you start playing top pair value hands out of position against a large field, you're in big trouble.

This is an interesting discussion to me. Let me preface this with the fact that i am basically a NL tournament player.

From my study of HOH, it seems to me that DH recommends completing with anything but the worst of rags from the SB. The logic being that the pot odds are irresistible and you simply can't fold in the face of the odds. I have been following this logic.

I recognize the inherent dangers associated with a weak starting hand, but I am pretty much in check/fold mode unless I hit a monster. Are we saying that DH is wrong as far as tourney play goes? Or is he right and this doesn't correlate to a ring game.

I doubt my present bad run is due to my SB play, but if its a leak I want to fix it.

implied odds in NL MTTs vs Limit Cash games are very different...

KJ

to reemphasize my above post; the blinds are the price you pay to have a game with action. Without blinds everyone just folds until they have pocket Aces.

Too many people think they need to religiously defend their blinds or call based on the reduced price. A better way to look at it is, instead of defending wait until you have position and a decent hand and attack someone elses blind.

Defending your blind or calling solely based on a reduced price usually leads to bigger losses on later betting rounds

Steve is sooooo right...

I was a big befender before... My point was... you loose small and you win big if you hit big!!!

WRONG!!!! You also sometime loose very dam big when you hit 2 pairs, top pair, low trips etc etc

When you defend with crap, you have to be very carefull even if you hit!

KJ

i usually call with high suited, two high, or two connected.ill fold Q4... in sb. But like ant said, i got the impression from HOH that if your getting odds call with everything.