What do you think of these 2 hands? I play very aggressively - my AF on PT after 1800 hand is 3.13 with a VPIP of 22%. I feel like I may be losing money in the blinds with overaggressive play, and am going to post some hands to see if people think I have the right "balance". I may need to tone it down some, what do others do here? (by the way, I broke my "funk" I was in as posted in the other thread where I was down $240 in the first 800 hands of my new database - made it all back and now +50 )

PokerStars 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter
Preflop: Hero is BB with , .
1 fold, UTG+1 raises, 1 fold, MP2 calls, 1 fold, CO calls, 2 folds, Hero calls.

Flop: (8.50 SB) , , (4 players)
Hero checks, UTG+1 checks, MP2 bets, CO calls, Hero raises, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls, CO calls.

Turn: (8.25 BB) (4 players)
Hero bets, UTG+1 calls, MP2 folds, CO calls.

River: (11.25 BB) (3 players)
Hero checks, UTG+1 bets, CO folds, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 13.25 BB

Results in white below:
Hero has Th Kd (one pair, kings).
UTG+1 has Qc Qd (three of a kind, queens).
Outcome: UTG+1 wins 13.25 BB.


This one I was very aggressive on the flop, I ALMOST raised the turn but stopped myself because of my feeling I was being overaggressive, probably a raise or fold though I called, how do others play this?

PokerStars 2/4 Hold'em (7 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with , .
4 folds, Hero raises, 1 fold, BB calls.

Flop: (4.50 SB) , , (2 players)
BB bets, Hero raises, BB 3-bets, Hero caps, BB calls.

Turn: (6.25 BB) (2 players)
BB bets, Hero calls.

River: (8.25 BB) (2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: 8.25 BB

Results in white below:
BB has Qc 8c (one pair, eights).
Hero has Tc Js (one pair, tens).
Outcome: Hero wins 8.25 BB.

Yeesh! I really hate limit. :good:

Haven't peek at the answers, I would play the same way.

Edit:
Hand no 1. The bad guy probably had KQ clubs or Ax clubs.
Hand no 2. The bad girl probably had AT.

Edit2: OMG these 2/4 guys really come from another world! :rockpoker

Hand 1, Fold PF, but if you must play it.... River Call is -EV, rest looks good.

Hand 2, Either pitch it or raise to the turn Bet, I don't like calling. And bet this river, I would then assume he realized that his probable bluff isnt working, and you have a hand, a bet is definatly +EV here.....

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Hand 1: I would have bet the river and called the raise. He should have folded to your raise on the flop or at least on the turn. Drawing to a 2 outer isn't a smart move. I would mark him and take his money...

Hand 2: Bet this every street and twice if raised....Villian is betting that you missed the flop, not realizing that there are plenty of hands that you could have that have him dominated.

He probably put you on rags and you were trying to steal the blinds. Once you called his turn bet, he realized you weren't going away and he could be in trouble (after representing trips on the flop). I would have bet on the river. Every now and then, you may be checked raised, but more often they'll fold (if they don't call).

One thing I try to remember about limit is that when you get heads up, the odds are much greater that they missed the flop then hit it. Capping on the flop a lot of people will do as a bluff or if they believe you missed the flop and they got a piece of it. IMO, the only way to get information about anothers hand is to raise on the turn. If they truely have the trips you may have put them on during the flop betting, then they'll reraise you and you can get away from the hand (or call and it only costs you 2 extra bets). More often then not, I've seen the raise on the turn get called and I'm checked into on the river. I can then check (if I'm not sure) or bet if I believe I'm ahead.

If they call to the turn raise, then it costs the same as if you called the turn and river bet...no money lost, but you get to take control of the hand and put pressure on the other guy instead of the pressure being on you.

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Trons
JstTrons
Toyotatruck

Your AF is double the bench mark used by Poker Tracker - Less than 0.70 = passive; more than 1.5 = aggressive.
***Are you including PF# in your AF calculation?***
You turn PF# on or off at the top of the 'More Details' page. If PF# are NOT included then your AF will be higher and not truly reflective of overall play.

At double the bench mark, I would say your AF is way too high. I feel I am fairly aggressive at 1.06 (8200+ hands) but my trapping, and slowplaying strong hands on the flop does lower my numbers some. I prefer to make my most aggressive moves on the turn with the Big Bets in play and a chance to close it out right there - unless I have a very powerful hand and may try for extra bets on the river if my opps are helping out.

With your AF# at 3.13 and VPIP of 22%, I guessing your lossing bets from a lot of the table recognising and folding to a TAA. I think you're may have to change gears more often to bring your AF down a notch or two - especially with your more powerful hands - to say a TA. You still want to protect your marginal and weaker hands with raises but occationally slowplaying a set or a nut str8/flush to the river may pay bigger dividends over time.

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:ah :as :ad :8c :8d

Oh, OK I checked the box and that brings me way down on AF but I am still at 1.46 overall. Good point!
Preflop: raise 8.79% call 15.49 % check 5.0% AF 0.57
flop AF 3.25
Turn 3.73
river 2.12

Now the only thing I don't get is that I would think that the AF would be more accurate if you didn't include preflop numbers, I realize PT says that but it doesn't make sense. You sometimes run into (bad) players that have VPIP of >40% but their post flop aggression is ridiculously high - they NEVER just call. Their high VPIP (i.e. lots of loose preflop calls) would push their overall AF down so they would be rated as passive, although they clearly are not. So I think I will continue to autorate people with the preflop numbers not included. I look at AF and VPIP to help me play specific people (I use PokerAce HUD).

Now that I know about not including the preflop numbers as far as the AF> 1.5 it doesn't seem like I am too bad after all. Your arguement was exactly what I was worried about, I just didn't spell out the issue as clearly as you did. I do have a tendency I think to overplay big hands in an effort to not get drawn out on and think that I lose some calls that way.
I have found that I CLEARLY am leaking money in the small blind, and to a lesser extent the BB. Quite a big amount of my "call" 15.49% is SB and BB calling (raises in the case of BB).
In my live play at 3-6, 4-8 I am usually the most aggressive player at the table and can make these calls since I can outplay these people post flop with aggressive tricky play (like I was talking about in the "trash in the SB" thread). But these 2-4 pokerstars players are much much better than my competition on the strip, these people are often as good as (and some better) than I am. Like in the JT hand above, almost no live 4-8 player would cap that flop without a better hand than me, that's why I slowed down on the turn. These online people have been an adjustment for me. I am trying to ready myself for live 10-20 so wanted to plug leaks via online PT before the jump.
If you don't mind, what is your flop/turn/river AF? What do you think of my numbers?

I'm still working on the meaning of a lot of the data and AF is not an area I'm fully confortable as understanding just yet. Seems to me if you DO NOT use the PF#, you are only getting a read/rate on post flop aggression while if you DO use PF# you are then getting an overall aggression factor. So for your >40% VPIP player who calls and limps a lot pre-flop, he would be rated a LP but post flop he would be a LA; add the post flop AF to the PF AF and he becomes a LPA overall. Does this make sense?

My numbers which are slowly getting more tight and aggrssive as I tighten up my game are:
VPIP = 27.29%
PF % - Raise = 9.34; Call = 20.63; Check = 7.0; Fold = 63.04
PF AF = 0.45 (thought it would be higher)
Flop AF = 1.40
Turn AF = 2.27 (this is where I prefer to make my strongest moves and close out if I can)
River AF = 2.03 (surprised it was this high!)
Total AF = 1.06

What do I think of your numbers? I'm still trying to figure out mine!! lol . Maybe you're too aggressive as I was saying earlier and certainly you are compared to my figures but that could just mean I'm not aggressive enough - which is probably true. BUT and this is a very big BUT, PT doesn't take a lot into account such as style, experience and player adjustments to varing table elements and factors. For example, I generally like to ease through the flop and pounce on the turn and closing out on the turn is a not a bad thing for my style. I'll do that for a while and then change gears and play str8-forward for a while before changing back to usual or another pattern. Other examples would be player types and position, how they entered the pot and of course the charactor of the table (loose vs tight and aggressive vs passive). I don't think simply saying a VPIP of 31% is too loose or 15% is too tight is a very accurate statement since a good player is always changing gears between loose and tight depending on position, table and the opposition nor can AF be so rigidly applied because while I may raise AQo against a loose player, I may just fold it to a rock from UTG!

Anyway, I think future threads will involve a lot more discussion on PT ratings and various data such as AF and BB/100 Hands and a better understanding of where you are will be more easily interputed. Cheers!

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:ah :as :ad :8c :8d

This guy can't have a hand like AcQx or something? You're getting 12.25:1 man

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“There's no sense in being precise when you don't even know what you're talking about.” - John von Neumann

Thanks for posting your numbers - it is helpful to see what someone else has as I without this forum I am in a vacuum as far as to compare PT numbers.

I see what you are saying in the argument as far as including the preflop AF. I use PokerAce as I mentioned and I use AF to decide if someone is likely to have the goods or not. If I raise preflop with JJ and a A flops and someone bets into me then I look at a low AF and feel that he is more likely to have the A since he rarely bets, he is usually calling. Wheras a player with a really high AF may be semibluffing a draw or bullshitting me. So for my purposes it is better to get the preflop numbers out since I only care about their postflop aggression. It also helps me decide who I can checkraise since higher the AF more likely they will bet.

I hear what you are saying about different styles and still winning, but I have been told numerous times especially 2+2 forums that it is hard to win consistantly at full ring limit with a VPIP>22%. I am trying to get comfortable folding more blinds where I am clearly leaking money and my last 500 hands my VPIP SB has gone down from 47% to 35% (note I raise alot from the blinds if I think I have an edge so this bumps my numbers.) That has lowered my overall to 21.57% What are your thoughts on the VPIP issue? Have you looked at your win rates with various VPIP's? Are you including shorthanded tables in your numbers?

Thanks Yeah at the time I figured I was still beating JJ and AQ so I better call. I didn't have a good feeling about it though......