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Go Back PokerForums.org > Strategy Discussion > General Poker Strategy > Giving too much credit

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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 11-19-2005, 12:34 PM
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Default Giving too much credit

I seem to do this alot, well maybe not alot but somewhat often. I am pretty sure that I am tied with the other player, so I back off the hand not to get raped by the rake only to find out I had the best hand.

I guess I am a bit weak tight, even though I feel I play an aggressive game.

Here is an example, playing Empire to clear my 5X bonus

Empire Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (7 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is SB with , .
2 folds, MP2 calls, 1 fold, Button calls, Hero completes, BB checks.

Granted alot of people will fold this hand from the SB, in an unraised pot I typically will play it and can usually make it profitable. I could have raised, but that tends to make it slightly harder to get away from post flop. Button seemed to be a traditional calling station, 29/0/0.5 the BB is a fish 49/1.5/0.25.

Flop: (4 SB) , , (4 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, MP2 checks, Button bets, Hero raises, BB calls, MP2 folds, Button calls.

pretty standard play, check raise for info with a moderately good hand.

Turn: (5 BB) (3 players)
Hero bets, BB calls, Button raises, Hero calls, BB folds.

Here is where I figured we'd split the pot, so I just call.

River: (10 BB) (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 12 BB

Results in white below:
Button has 7h 7c (full house, sixes full of sevens).
Hero has 2h Ac (full house, sixes full of aces).
Outcome: Hero wins 12 BB.



Would anyone else have been raising this, against an aggressive player I would have but someone passive....gah, felt stupid for missing a bunch of bets here.

Last edited by Phytopath; 11-19-2005 at 12:42 PM.
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Old 11-19-2005, 12:40 PM
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Default Another example

Empire 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is SB with , .
UTG calls, 3 folds, MP2 calls, 1 fold, CO calls, Button calls, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (6 SB) , , (6 players)
Hero bets, BB calls, UTG calls, MP2 calls, CO raises, Button calls, Hero calls, BB calls, UTG calls, MP2 calls.

Turn: (9 BB) (6 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG checks, MP2 checks, CO bets, Button calls, Hero raises, BB folds, UTG folds, MP2 calls, CO calls, Button calls.

probably should have just bet this out, I screwed it up a bit, MP2 cold calling 2 bets obviously made me wonder, I thought either he had the or already made the A high flush. I had pretty much no read on MP2 fairly new to the table, hence why I assigned decent hands to him

River: (17 BB) (4 players)
Hero bets, MP2 raises, CO folds, Button folds, Hero calls.

I actually figured I was behind here, based on the cold call on the turn

Final Pot: 21 BB

Results in white below:
Hero has 9s Ks (flush, king high).
MP2 has 5h 5d (straight, seven high).
Outcome: Hero wins 21 BB.

Last edited by Phytopath; 11-19-2005 at 12:42 PM.
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Old 11-19-2005, 02:32 PM
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first hand, fold preflop

bet flop rest is okay
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Old 11-19-2005, 02:34 PM
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second hand

dont bet out on the flop... semibluffing into 5 people isnt a good idea... nobody will fold

river reraise is easy... if he had you would have heard from him on the turn and like a .5/1 donkey he just hit astraight with a 5 and thinks its good
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Old 11-19-2005, 02:41 PM
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Actually, I like how you played the second hand alot. I would checkraise there too because you know someone will bet it and whoever has the A of the flush suit will call multiple bets to see the river. Betting out again after you were raised on the flop and then just called screams made flush and people may just call/fold. Checkraising I think builds a bigger pot. The river was a prudent move given the coldcall as you mentioned.

The first hand I would have reraised the turn simply becuase you played it like someone with the case 6 by checkraising the flop out of the small blind with two sixes on board. There is some chance an A will fold, online probably only 10%, but even just a chance justifies you raising despite the rake issue.Since you didn't raise the turn, the river I bet since I don't want to give away money to somebody bluff raising with a worse hand on the turn (which is what he was doing). If you did reraise the turn I could see checking the river.

edit: I just read bboy's comments - he posted while I was typing - he makes a good point with the flush hand - I think I would base the river raise on if I thought idiot straight-boy was a good player or not. I guess at these levels I would raise too. At 2-4 online I think I would just call. That was a AWFUL play by that guy, coldcalling two for a onecard straight with three to a flush on the board is just awful. I give people too much credit sometimes, I would have felt that A high flush was >50% so why raise?

Overall, I don't think I'd be too hard on yourself. Both hands were played reasonably. I don't think the turn reraise I mentioned was mandatory, just more food for thought, as there is some chance the guy has A6 and was waiting until the turn to put the hammer down, as the way he played it would be perfect for A6. If he had that you would be wondering if you were too aggressive!

Last edited by growlers; 11-19-2005 at 02:50 PM.
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Old 11-19-2005, 04:10 PM
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I would be folding both preflop.

A-2 is a losing hand.
if anyone calls you with an ace, you have lost unless you hit two pair or a straight.
Suggest scrubbing it from your starting hand selection, especially in ring.

K-9 is another losing hand I definately would never play in a ring game.

Over the long term both these hands would lose you money.
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Old 11-19-2005, 04:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gryff
I would be folding both preflop.

A-2 is a losing hand.
if anyone calls you with an ace, you have lost unless you hit two pair or a straight.
Suggest scrubbing it from your starting hand selection, especially in ring.

K-9 is another losing hand I definately would never play in a ring game.

Over the long term both these hands would lose you money.
You can't fold these hands from the SB getting 7:1 though. :/
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Old 11-19-2005, 05:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eclinchy
You can't fold these hands from the SB getting 7:1 though. :/
Uh why?
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Old 11-19-2005, 11:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gryff
I would be folding both preflop.

A-2 is a losing hand.
if anyone calls you with an ace, you have lost unless you hit two pair or a straight.
Suggest scrubbing it from your starting hand selection, especially in ring.

K-9 is another losing hand I definately would never play in a ring game.

Over the long term both these hands would lose you money.
1st hand isn't very good and I know it can be trouble, however the button limping in and only the BB to act after me without a raise and getting 6-1 on my money I will play it everytime in that situation. With more limpers it becomes a liability and I'll toss it.

If you give me 7-1 or more I'll play any suited cards from the small blind, K9 I would play without hesitation in an unraised pot. It's actually fairly safe to play, you shouldn't get trapped unless you flop trips.
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Old 11-19-2005, 11:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bboy
second hand

dont bet out on the flop... semibluffing into 5 people isnt a good idea... nobody will fold

river reraise is easy... if he had you would have heard from him on the turn and like a .5/1 donkey he just hit astraight with a 5 and thinks its good
I bet out on the flop more for value than as a semi-bluff, with my pot equity I wanted callers.

Yeah gave him too much credit, people cold calling always throw me off .
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