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11-16-2005, 09:56 PM
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Poker Hustler
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Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,195
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Was this a screw up or good play?
PokerStars 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (8 handed) converter
Preflop: Hero is UTG with  ,  . CO posts a blind of $0.25.
Hero raises, 1 fold, MP1 calls, 1 fold, CO (poster) calls, 2 folds, BB 3-bets, Hero caps, MP1 calls, CO calls, BB calls.
I capped the betting (even though I may have been beaten at this point) to make MP, CO and BB cold call 2 bets (hoping they would rethink their hands and fold).
Flop: (16.40 SB)  ,  , (4 players)
BB bets, Hero raises, MP1 3-bets, CO folds, BB caps, Hero calls, MP1 calls.
BB had been playing very LAG. He could very easily been holding 72o and made this play. I liked the flop (TPGK on a weak board). MP1's raise threw me for a loop, but I figured he "could' be making the raise with Ax and trying to get the other people to fold. BB capping surprised me (in previous hands, he would bet, then call a raise and repeat on the next street). I began to think I may be beat by MP1, and wasn't sure what the best move was because my read wasn't very strong.
Turn: (14.20 BB) (3 players)
BB bets, Hero calls, MP1 raises, BB 3-bets, Hero caps, MP1 calls, BB calls.
I don't see how this card helped anybody so I liked it. It put a flush draw on the table, but it wasn't a flush yet. I called BB's initial bet because he could still have anything and be playing like this (he was playing this way a lot). I really expected MP1 to call down also (he hadn't been there long, so I wasn't sure if he had a decent read on BB). When he raised, I thought he either has me beat (75%) or he has a weaker kicker and is trying to get it heads up between him and whom ever (25%). I decided BB had Ax and I either had him out kicked or he had hit 2 pair. With the amount of money in the pot, I figured it was time to gamble :good:
River: (26.20 BB) (3 players)
BB bets, Hero raises, MP1 calls, BB calls.
At this point, I had already decided that it was going to be capped (as the previous two rounds) and I honestly believed at this point, I had the best hand. I figured the only hand that beat me was AA and the only person who may likely have that was MP1. I had also decided not to be afraid of a single hand and raise BB's bet. I was surprised that they both called down, but their calls told me I had won before the cards were flipped.
Final Pot: 32.20 BB
Results in white below:
BB has As Jh (one pair, aces).
Hero has Qd Ad (two pair, aces and queens).
MP1 has Ah Kd (one pair, aces).
Outcome: Hero wins 32.20 BB.
BB had been playing very loose, and very aggressive. He had also been drawing out quite a bit. I knew his luck couldn't hold out but I wanted to be one of the guys who stacked him. He had gone from a little over $3 (when I sat down) to over $20 (had $13 when this hand took place).
How horrible was my play here?
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Originally Posted by Jason75
I like trons' advice.
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Trons
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11-16-2005, 11:38 PM
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Poker Hustler
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Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Savannah, GA
Posts: 1,184
Limits Played: $0.50-$1 NL
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Here are my thoughts: Ten handed, I'm not capping with AQs, but not too terrible. On the flop I'm really kinda worried that I am behind MP1, either AK, A8, A2, 88, or 22. I'm ruling out AA, as unless they are stupid they are going to wait until the turn and river to push with top set on a ragged uncoordinated board. Of those I'm ruling out AK, per the way he played it preflop (unless he's just like that). You mentioned BB was LAG, so at this point I think it's safe to assume you are ahead. The turn is really where I disagree with your play. The BB bet, and MP1 raised, again. You can't believe you are ahead right now, when the BB three-bet you might have to give him some respect for a hand, unless he's a total maniac, but even then maniacs get delt good hands too. I'm not too fond of your cap, but I guess its probably inevitable with MP1 still to act, however, at this point, I'm thinking of dumping, but with the pot at 20+ BB, you and you still have three outs, assuming MP1 or BB doesn't have a set. That's my two cents, now time to look at results.
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11-16-2005, 11:42 PM
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Check Raiser
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Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: High River, Alberta
Posts: 739
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Capping pre-flop doesn't make sense to me with just overcards and getting players already invested to quit with a 2 bet cold call is tough at these limits. All in all, nice try and no real harm done I guess. Since MP1 only called your first raise I'm thinking just overcards from that player. The BB should have just called as well with only A-Jo but as you pointed out he's something of a maniac.
The flop bets put at least an Ace with both the BB and MP1. I was thinking the BB might have KK or QQ until he capped the bets, even an idiot would have to know you and MP1 both had Aces or better. MP1 could not have called with anything less than an Ace good kicker but since he re-raised both of you and the BB, he has to have at least A-K or 2 pair just to stay in. You should be thinking you're behind at least one of these two - probably MP1 judging by your read on the BB. At this point, you should be thinking call-down or fold IMO.
Turn - well, the BB isn't slowing down and neither is MP1 - I would be real nervous about just how well my kicker is holding up and wondering if maybe MP1 doesn't have a set of 8s! Shame on me but I probably would have folded here - certainly would not have capped although it looks as though MP1 would have anyway.
River - miracle card - maybe! I admire your courage by raising into a possible set whereas I would have just called it down - but then again I would have folded on the turn so wouldn't have that decision. Congrads - nice pot! You read the BB very well and MP1 was only as strong as TPTK - so you got lucky and dodged a bullet with a suckout on the river. You probably deserve at least this one to compensate getting sucked out multiple times before!
Generally, I think capping with overcards was overdone in this hand. Your strategy of capping preflop to thin the field was a good one although tuf at these limits - as you found out! Capping the turn made no sense to me at all!
That's my 2cents worth - donate it to the homeless gambler's fund in your area!
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11-17-2005, 02:11 AM
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Check Raiser
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Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Las Vegas
Posts: 708
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I like the preflop cap as the two players coldcalling will almost always have a worse ace than you, something like KQ, or small pairs. Hard to believe that these coldcallers has AK AA QQ KK or even JJ. Get money in the pot with what is likely the best hand.
Flop I like the play.
Turn, after all the bets were in based on preflop coldcall, flop betting, and turn betting I am >50% convinced MP has 88. In limit when these people coldcall an UTG raiser and then call bets until it is capped they often have 66 through 1010. The problem is, the pot is so big that I might have called it down as well, you have to definitely be more sure than 50% you are beat. Very tough decision the way you played it.
I would have raised the turn in a heartbeat and if MP3 three bet and BB capped, dumped it. I don't see the point in just calling BB bet here - you allow MP to try to make a raise for a free showdown and lose control of the hand.
River is tough, again because the way you played the hand. If you had raised the turn it would be easier to figure out if you were value betting here or behind 88.
So in short, I like all of it but would have raised the turn, would have made the rest of the hand alot easier.
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11-17-2005, 05:25 AM
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Fish
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Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 31
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i find that post to be much more difficult to follow than the raw, linear log data. just an observation.
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11-17-2005, 09:08 AM
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Poker Hustler
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Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: NYC
Posts: 1,010
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^^Thats funny, because its one of the best "whats going on at the table" write-ups I've seen. The play is bad without the info he wrote in about the BB.
I still would have folded the turn. The play was irratic and I'm not a big risk taker in these situations. You at this point know its going 8 more bets and your outs are running thin. 8 more bets to have a less than 50% chance of winning is not the proposition I am taking. I was thinking the hands were 88 and AK, but at this limit you can never be sure because you get flooded with maniacs. I'm making my plays elsewhere.
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11-17-2005, 09:44 AM
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PokerForums God
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Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 8,172
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I don't mind the capp - no one else can raise, you are projecting power, and you may get a fold. The flop was ok, I am not folding it yet.
The turn is too agressive. in fact, you should probably fold when it is two more back to you, you could be drawing dead and have 3 outs at best. You are only getting 10:1 on your money and could very well have to call another bet eroding further, and you don't want to get trapped on the river between these two unimproved.
River - BINGO!
Make some notes on these too - MP seems solid, BB is a moron.
Last edited by Beavis68; 11-17-2005 at 09:49 AM.
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11-17-2005, 12:46 PM
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Check Raiser
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Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Las Vegas
Posts: 708
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Beavis68
The turn is too agressive. in fact, you should probably fold when it is two more back to you, you could be drawing dead and have 3 outs at best. .
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Beavis, what do you think of my play of raising the turn and dumping it if it is raised and reraises back to you? It seems like I'd rather do that then call a single bet - it seems like MP might raise if you call with either better or worse hands, but will only likely three bet (if you raise) with a better hand like 88 so you can safely dump it. In a live game this is how I would have played it as the limits I play there is no way MP three bets the turn with a worse hand. Online, people are more aggressive.....so I don't know.
I absolutely hate to be calling in the middle of two people when I am either way ahead or way behind - it is unclear to me on the turn if he has any outs as 88 is a concern. I have a tendency to raise in these situations to see where I am at.
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11-17-2005, 01:10 PM
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Poker Hustler
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Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,195
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The big problem I saw with raising initially on the turn was that either it would have been called down by MP1 (which is what i hoped) or he would raise anyway (given the way it was played PF and on the flop). I figured that, again given the way past hands had gone, either BB would reraise (if I raised and MP1 flat called) or he would call down if I raised and MP1 raised.
When they both raised, the only information I really had was on MP1, but I also saw him doing that with a lesser hand like TT-KK trying to get the Ax (weaker kicker) to fold it down. Again, the reraise by BB didn't give me any solid information because he was such a maniac.
When MP1 had raised on the turn, I was forced to make a choice. I knew that choice would lead to me winning a great pot or losing a lot of money. I had a good idea that it would be capped on the river (losing me an additional $2 if I was wrong about potential holdings). I decided to cap the bet on the river figuring with the pot sized so large I was almost committed to playing it through to the end. I figured I would have to be better then 90% sure I was beat to justify a laydown at this point. I couldn't be that sure I was beat by MP1 because I hadn't seen him play that many hands. I figured I had BB beat.
The more I think about the hand, the more I believe the worst move I made was to call on the turn. I should have figured I was married to the pot unless a serious scare card hit (any painted other then a Q or maybe a ten). There was no way I could be sure that MP1 wasn't a maniac also and trying to rely on blind agression to win him the hand. My call on the turn showed that I had Ax instead of trips. I think MP1 put me on AQ or less which is why he flat called when I raised on the river.
I believe that if I had raised on the turn, he would have put me on 2pair or better and either flat called (giving BB the chance to reraise and me the chance to reraise and possiblibly getting MP1 to fold figuring he was beat at that time.
I will say that I was really surprised by BB having his cards. I didn't expect anything that decent from him. I also noted that I had gotten lucky against MP1 and he was a solid player.
__________________
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Jason75
I like trons' advice.
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Trons
JstTrons
Toyotatruck
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11-17-2005, 01:25 PM
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PokerForums God
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Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 8,172
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you lose very little equity by letting MP call for 1 bet, if you are ahead he only has 2-3 outs to beat you infact, you may profit from an overcall on the turn. But if you call, he raises and the BB 3-bets, you save yourself a bet.
Last edited by Beavis68; 11-17-2005 at 01:34 PM.
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