PokerStars Game #3017225315: Hold'em Limit ($0.25/$0.50) - 2005/11/09 - 21:14:53 (ET)
Table 'Anius V' Seat #3 is the button
Seat 1: Snomankw ($9.40 in chips)
Seat 2: cyph3r86 ($5.45 in chips)
Seat 3: Mayzee ($1.90 in chips)
Seat 4: JstTrons ($16.70 in chips)
Seat 5: fourbettor ($8.90 in chips)
Seat 6: ELLIE50 ($12.70 in chips)
Seat 9: Spartan1001 ($10.70 in chips)
Seat 10: golferbirdie ($4.75 in chips)
JstTrons: posts small blind $0.10
fourbettor: posts big blind $0.25
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to JstTrons [ ]
ELLIE50: folds
Spartan1001: calls $0.25
golferbirdie: calls $0.25
Snomankw: folds
cyph3r86: folds
Mayzee: raises $0.25 to $0.50
JstTrons: calls $0.40
fourbettor: folds
Spartan1001: calls $0.25
golferbirdie: calls $0.25
*** FLOP *** [ ]
JstTrons: checks
Spartan1001: checks
golferbirdie: bets $0.25
Mayzee: calls $0.25
JstTrons: raises $0.25 to $0.50
Spartan1001: folds
golferbirdie: calls $0.25
Mayzee: calls $0.25
*** TURN *** [ ] []
JstTrons: bets $0.50
golferbirdie: calls $0.50
Mayzee: calls $0.50
*** RIVER *** [ ] []
JstTrons: bets $0.50
golferbirdie: calls $0.50
Mayzee: calls $0.40 and is all-in
*** SHOW DOWN ***
JstTrons: shows [2h Ah] (a pair of Aces)
golferbirdie: mucks hand
JstTrons collected $0.20 from side pot
Mayzee: mucks hand
JstTrons collected $6.15 from main pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $6.65 Main pot $6.15. Side pot $0.20. | Rake $0.30
Board [Th 3h 4d As Jd]
Seat 1: Snomankw folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: cyph3r86 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: Mayzee (button) mucked [Qs Qc]
Seat 4: JstTrons (small blind) showed [2h Ah] and won ($6.35) with a pair of Aces
Seat 5: fourbettor (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 6: ELLIE50 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: Spartan1001 folded on the Flop
Seat 10: golferbirdie mucked [Qh Ts]

The reason I ask is because when I saw the flop, I thought "this is a text book check/raise" I felt this way because I expected everybody to check to to the PF raiser and for him to bet out. I had a lot of outs, but still a marginally weak hand at the moment (didn't even concider an A as 3 outs because such a low kicker). I wanted to narrow the field and to do it on the flop.

When the other guy bets into the PF raiser (gutsy with this flop imho), I had to pause. Luckily the PF raiser paused enogh to give me time to think and I decided I was going to follow through with the check raise. My reasons are this. I had put the flop bettor on 2pair or trips (why else do you bet into a PF raiser?). I had the 9 outs (let's not start that conversation again) to the flush and 4 5's to the str8. I wanted to be heads up against him. I really expected him to reraise me (to limit the field further).

When I got the call on the flop, I decided he didn't have the 2 pair or trips I thought he had and decided my ace may be good, so I continue to bet out...
Same on the river...we're not results oriented, so the question lies solely on the check raise when I'm only looking at being able to push one person out if the original bettor doesn't raise me. Should I have played that differently when the original raiser didn't raise on the flop?

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Trons
JstTrons
Toyotatruck

I finf the turn a better place to check-raise these hands. Tough to get someone to laydown a hand for a small bet, it usually sends them into check call mode and all you have is Ace high.

The bluff part of the semi-bluff has a better chance of working on the turn

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I like it for the free card play. Ok, so you hit the wrong draw, but you did good by betting it out here. I like your play on every street. If you missed everything on the turn, then they would be hesitant to bet out since they would be fearing the CR again.....

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you're out of position how are you going to get a free card? there are only 3 reasons to check-raise the flop,

For value when you believe you have the best hand or have more opponents than you are an underdog

As a semi-bluff with heavy emphasis on the bluff. If your opponent isn't going to fold this is pointless you are putting in more money with a draw reducing your odds

For information. This should be rarely used but occasionally you would like to know if you are behind or WAY behind.

Throw in, If you can eliminate a lot of opponents who may be drawing to some of your outs but with better kickers

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These players at this limit will usually fear a second CR, sometimes, not always, maybe 50/50. I think the CR is debatlable, but not wrong, and as I said, the rest of it was spot on.

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the problem is you eliminate all the bluff from it. If the person is bad enough to fear a second check-raise he will just go into call down mode. A lot of this hands value is in bluffing

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With a bettor and a caller in front of you on the flop, the raise is probably for value (only need two callers with the nut/flush draw, right? And with the extra outs from the overcard and the gutshot I think you're OK there. Also, a funny thing with checkraising the flop against weak opponents OOP, is if you hit your flush and check... they'll usually bet again trying to represent it

*please correct me if my understanding of the math there is wrong

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-You may not know this, but poker is a game of incomplete information.

its not really for value, with 2 opponents and a preflop raise I'm assuming my Ace is not a good out (against 1 opponent I would count it higher). yes you are getting proper odds but thats only if there is no action on the turn when you miss, given your position this is unlikely. You are over 3 to 1 to hit on the next card and putting money in at 2 to 1, if you count in a bet on the turn then your odds increase to around 2 to 1. Unfortunately the turn may be raised and re-raised killing your odds.


In position I agree with raising, because you control the turn betting so when you miss you are more likely to get a free card. in this spot your lucky the QQ or even the QT guy doesn't 3 bet and if you look real close you can't get full value from the QQ guy so future bets could be effectively heads up if there is a raise on the turn.

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I am not a limit player, so forgive me if this is ignorant.

But why did the Pocket Queens play this so passively. He has to raise the golfers bet on the flop doesn't he? And if he did, would you still have raised?

It seems to me that the Q's played this very weak.

I completely agree with this. Q's should have re-raised the flop and come out firing with both guns on the river. His call on the flop probably lost him the pot.