Originally Posted by traz

And I don't know any plain flush draws or straight draws that will raise on the flop, unless the intention is to steal, which you've stated isn't your intention.

Raising a flush or an open-ended straight draw, in position, on the come, is a very common play in limit hold'em. Like any other play, it can neither be overused nor attempted regardless of the circumstances. But when used properly, it can have many beneficial results, not the least of which is securing a free card on the turn when everyone left in the pot checks to the raiser.

Originally Posted by PJ of TheGame

lol... i may not follow something. How do random hands have different winning percentages? Aren't they each supposed to be the same range of hands?

Trons, I appreciate that input, and it is valuable. But look at things... is 2-7 calling two cold here? only if they are a fish, but that is one hand that would influence the "random" results in pokerstove.

You say the most likely result is that they check/call you down... but since you're making a free card play, you're not going to bet unless you improve anyway, and with position on the bettor, it could work.

Against a tricky aggressive opponent, I don't think this is a good play. But in a large field of passive players... you'll get two shots at your six outs and take down a very large pot when you hit.

That was the point of the Poker Stove input. We're not taking into account which hands are likely to be calling two bets on the flop. The point was that if they do call, even with random hands, you're still a minor dog making this a -EV. If they call with non-random hands (use standard starting hands from EP as an example) that becomes an even greater -EV.

I've raised from position with the nut flush draw on the flop. Usually because I have that draw, and an over card. I won't make that move with just a K or Q and I won't do it with JUST an OESD. When I do this, I'm not only knocking people out (in case my A hits and TPMK becomes a winning hand) but also because I want to build the pot for the times that the flush hits. Raising with 2 overcards alone (hoping that TPGK is good at the end of the hand) is not a move I would make.

That being said, I guess there is a decent arguement to make, I just don't see how the numbers, or stratagy, or over all table image you may want to present would play into it.

Against a large field of weak passive players, I feel this move becomes even more -EV because of the likely hood that their going to call down with their Ax and the likely hood that you're going to narrow the field enough to make a pair of kings good (often enough to push this to a +EV) is far slimmer. I would rather play against a tricky agressive player who has the sense to put me on a hand that I may not have and possibly fold a better hand.