Cake Poker
Home
Forum
News
Articles
Site Reviews
Book Reviews
Interviews
Chat
Tournaments
60% Rakeback
50% RakebackNew!
125% Rakeback
Probabilities
Glossary
Poker Gear
Links
Advertise
User Name  
 
Password
Cookie?  
 
 
Poker Players on Launchpoker.com
LaunchPoker.com provides you with all the information you need about this year's WSOP event, from the 2008 WSOP schedule to the latest 2008 WSOP updates.
Online poker reviews of rooms such as Full Tilt Poker, Poker Stars and Titan Poker.
Extras

Cool Hand Poker. Get $350 Free!!
PokerListings

Go Back PokerForums.org > Strategy Discussion > General Poker Strategy > NL B&M tourney - AKo in MP vs EP raise

Notices

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old 11-07-2005, 09:20 AM
Fish
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Norman, OK
Posts: 90
Trade Rating: (0)
Default NL B&M tourney - AKo in MP vs EP raise

I had been away from my local game for some time, and decided to get back in the saddle last week - I had almost forgotten what the symphony of clay chips and KEM cards sounded like, but I digress.

My local game is a $20 full single table that starts with T2000/player on the PokerStars blind schedule (without antes) with 30 min. blinds.

The hand in question:

We're only 10 minutes or so into 25/50. Pre color-up I had very little action but was able to get past the first hour with almost exactly what I had started with - 2000 in chips.

I'm in MP praying for a hand. EP1 is the host - a strong LAG who mixes up his play, and can lay down just as well as he can bluff. He has about 3000, down a bit from his early lead. EP2 is a LAG that really likes to gamble it up, and she has about 2500, thanks to an early double-up on a 4-to-1 dog.

UTG limps, EP1 raises to 250, EP2 thinks and calls. I look down to find AKo, my first real hand of the night. There is about 600 in the pot. I think a moment - while I'm thinking, how would you play here?

If I call, I am almost certain to see the flop for just 250. Between EP1's raise and my call, the table would respect. [Speaking of - while EP raises from EP1 have proved to be anything like 66-AA, AT-AK, KJ-KQ, his particular raise this time made me think 88-AA, AQ-AK. EP2's call was likely a small pocket pair or a mid suited connector (or one-gap, behind either way).] There might be another caller and we'd see the flop with 4 players and I play it hit-or-miss, and can wait for a better spot if I miss with a little over 1700 left.

If I raise, I'm in a bit of a bad spot. I really don't like to go all-in with AKo in MP when I still have a healthy amount of chips, but EP2's call has made this pot just big enough to warrant it IMO. If I push, I don't want a call - I just want 600. I really feel like I'm a coinflip against EP1, but I figure that 1. unless EP1 has a monster, there is a slight chance one of the two gamblers behind me might call with a worse Ace or smaller pocket pair and make EP1 and EP2 dead money, 2. there is a fair chance EP1 may fold to my TAG play anyway, and 3. if I do get a call, I'm a coinflip to either move up near the top of the chip ladder or go home and do something else.

With all of that, I went all-in. A TAG made a comment as he folded behind me that he was laying down a good hand (there goes an Ace). An aggressive big stack on the button thought a bit then folded (there goes another Ace). Back around to EP1, and he thinks for a moment, measures off the 1700 and change for the call, and pushes it in. EP2 says she wanted to play this hand and folds (later showing 22, pffft).

I turn over the big slick, and EP1 nods and shows TT. "Good call." The board comes out low rainbow and makes a community 9-high strait on the river, letting EP1 take it down with the T-high.

I suppose it was good play, but my hesitation preflop might have signaled to EP1 that I didn't have AA-QQ and he really only feared me showing JJ. How should I handle situations that I feel I need some time to think through? It doesn't happen often, but it usually matters when it does.
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Cake Poker
  #2 (permalink)  
Old 11-07-2005, 09:47 AM
KINGJACK's Avatar
Stu Ungar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Montréal
Posts: 2,398
Trade Rating: (0)
Default

Well... it was definately all in or fold IMO...

Depending of the reads your oponent had on you, your hesitation should'nt
have been a big factor.
You could have been thinking about how to max out your AA for example. (do you want to isolate, do you want some other callers etc.)

And honestly, I would have fold TT to a raise like that early in that SNG, especialy with an other player following.

So It hink you did well, however, he may had a good read on you to be holding AK and on Button and MP1 each holding an A.

Making the call easier.

But personaly I would have think of JJ or better and fold.

KJ
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old 11-07-2005, 09:48 AM
Jason75's Avatar
Poker Hustler
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 1,230
Trade Rating: (0)
Send a message via Yahoo to Jason75
Default

First off, why are these two players LAG's? Is it that they will open the pot with weak hands for raises, or is it that they don't respect reraises from tight players (like yourself)? Based on the play, I think the player who called you doesn't respect reraises from tight players. He's either a coinflip or dominated, not a good situation to call off 2/3 of your stack with.

Knowing this about him, I think raising all in in this situation is a mistake. I think this is a big overplay of AK here. It seems unlikely you're going to lose both the LAG's with the raise, so then let's ask ourselves - why raise all in? It doesn't accomplish our goal of winning the hand PF, we then lose our positional advantage, and significantly increase the volatility of the hand. (With a made hand such as TT-AA, I think this is the right play).

I think the play to make is to make a raise to isolate one or both of the LAG's and give yourself position. I'd raise to something like 600-750. It's enough to get out the players behind you, and isolate one or both of the LAG's. Then you can play this hand with your positional advantage (in this case, you likely fold on the flop and regroup).

I think the key is knowing why we're raising, knowing why we're raising the amount we're raising.

BTW, I'd take all the time I need to think about this one. But you also need to take your time when you have AA or KK so people don't pick up reads on you.
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old 11-07-2005, 10:28 AM
KINGJACK's Avatar
Stu Ungar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Montréal
Posts: 2,398
Trade Rating: (0)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason75
First off, why are these two players LAG's? Is it that they will open the pot with weak hands for raises, or is it that they don't respect reraises from tight players (like yourself)?
Well... Thats what I was thinking... They open with weaker hand they should... Normaly those kind of players tend to respect reraise if they are solid.

So the push was the right option IMO here...

EP1 would have limp hands like AA or KK IMO.
EP2 would have raise a very good hand.
So they are both supposed to fold on this one, if they have no read on you of course...

I think the problem is that EP1 knew you were on AK and saw the 2 other A on the Button and MP1...

The push was good IMO.

KJ
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old 11-07-2005, 10:43 AM
River Rat
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 478
Trade Rating: (0)
Default

I don't like the all in play at this stage of the game at all. With the blinds at 25/50 and 2000 in chips, you still have 40 big bets in your arsenal. Even if you flat call, miss the flop, and fold to a big bet, you'd have 35 big bets left and an M of 23. Given those numbers, I see no need to risk everything on AK to take down a 600 pot.

Personally, I would have called this bet, rather than raised it. This early in the game, I'd have given respect to a 5-bet raise and a call from two players in early position. I certainly wouldn't throw away my AK, but I also wouldn't move so much of my stack into the middle before the flop that I'm committed to the hand regardless of what falls.

Moreover, by calling here, you'd have position on the raisers, and most likely have bought the button for the remainder of the hand. Then, if the raisers do have hands like a middle pair or even a big Ace like yours, you might have the chance to outplay them after the flop. It's one thing for a hand like TT to call a re-raise before the flop... it's another thing to call a big bet after the flop that comes down Q high, e.g. Likewise, loose players may overbet before the flop with AK, AQ, or AJ, but give those hands up when three small cards hit the board.

Bottom-line... there are times when you have to risk it all with AK before the flop in a tournament. I just don't think that this was one of those times.
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old 11-07-2005, 02:46 PM
Jason75's Avatar
Poker Hustler
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 1,230
Trade Rating: (0)
Send a message via Yahoo to Jason75
Default

Oh, I seemed to have left this out this morning: I also don't have a problem with a flat call, even at the risk of the button and the blinds coming in. It's one thing to say "AK doesn't play well in multiway pots" (which is true), it's another thing to say "raise off your whole stack with AK every time to make sure you don't have a multiway pot".

All in all, I probably raise 50% of the time, and call 50%. I use the Dan Harrington watch trick (second hand on your watch) to determine what to do unless I have a very specific read.
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old 11-07-2005, 03:40 PM
Jason75's Avatar
Poker Hustler
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 1,230
Trade Rating: (0)
Send a message via Yahoo to Jason75
Default

Also, I'm not a big fan of trying to read players who fold for what their cards were. They could just as easily be folding a small to medium pocket pair, KQs, or even complete junk. The first words that go through my mind when I'm in this situation, is crap, I'd really have liked to play this little hand. The second words are - "oh well, muck it"

In fact, I would agonize over my cards regardless of what I held before folding in this situation just to try and get a read on you and the other players in the pot for later. Are they looking directly at me? Are they looking away from the action? Are they leaning over the table, then suddenly when they realize I'm looking at them lean back and take a drink and try and act non-chalantly? Are the players left to act holding their cards in a particular way, and then folding? or A particular way, then calling?

So I wouldn't get too quick to deduce how many aces are left from their actions, unless you know them that well (which you might).
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 02:29 AM.

   Designed by
      
No Deposit Bonus
Poker Strategy
Poker Rooms
PartyPoker Bonus Codes
Poker Site USA
Online Casino Bonuses
Pokerspiele
Casinos That Accept USA Players
Poker Rakeback
Full Tilt bonus code
Rakeback
Casino
Nowadays in the Internet the Players are looking for a good Casino Bonus to find the best possible options for online Roulette.There is now the option of RtlPoker and a nice Casino Bonus to play some other games then just Poker.
The ideal casino site for gokkasten and even online poker including online casino games that can be found on mijn online casino, your casino information site for when gambling online or even offline.
Party Poker bonus code & room review
Tony G talks about his experinces in his blog
REVIEW OF PARADISE POKER WEBSITE
Online Poker Room Directory and latest poker news
Best Online Poker info on Internet!
Ultimate Bet new 40% deposit bonus
Copyright © 2004-2008 PokerForums.org, a Merendi Networks Inc. project.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
SEO by vBSEO 3.2.0 ©2008, Crawlability, Inc.