Originally Posted by Girevik

At what point, if at all, does playing crap hands (T2o, or even 72o) from the SB become profitable limit? Just an extreme example, if I'm in the SB and the entire table has limped, I'd be getting 20-1 odds. Does that ever justify playing complete junk? If so, how many limpers do you need to take a shot at hitting two pair or a set?

For a set I believe you need to have 7.5/1, as for 7/2 and 10/2 Ill fold them in sb everytime not worth getting 2 pair and getting trapped or sucked out on.

Originally Posted by Girevik

At what point, if at all, does playing crap hands (T2o, or even 72o) from the SB become profitable limit? Just an extreme example, if I'm in the SB and the entire table has limped, I'd be getting 20-1 odds. Does that ever justify playing complete junk? If so, how many limpers do you need to take a shot at hitting two pair or a set?

You can't hit a set without a pocket pair. I think you mean hit trips.

Here's an interesting little website that discusses all kinds of different odds:

http://www.homepokergames.com/odds.php

So let's say we'll play trips, two pair (using our 2 holecards), quads, full house, or a flush.

2 unsuited cards will make trips or two pair, quads, or a full house about 3.45% of the time. So we'll have to get 27:1 odds on our money to make this a +EV play (direct + implied).

2 suited cards will make all of the above plus flop a flush 4.29% of the time, so you need to get about 22:1 odds to make this a +EV play.

I dunno....if I am getting good enough odds and the BB won't raise based on past actions I tend to call alot in a 2 chip - 4 chip game like 4-8. (If it is a 1 chip 3 chip game like 3-6 I do't play anything in the small blind that I wouldn't play from the button).

Usually when there is a lot of limpers it means it is a passive table, and my standard move here as long as all cards below 10 would be to checkraise, I also do this every time with a small pair on the board. The reason I do this is that it is so easy to get away from later and makes money in long run for me.

Let's say 5 limpers to you in SB and BB will check based on playing style in a 4-8 game. 5 limpers =$20 + BB = $4 + your $2 = $26 to you. You have to call $2 into a $26 pot. Flop 8 5 5. You check, late guy bets, you raise to $8. Alot of times he folds, he almost never reraises on the flop because he either fears the 5 or has one and doesn't want to get rid of you. Usually he calls. Bet $8 on turn, most of the time he folds but if you are raised you happily dump it. Total investment of mine = $18 (as initial SB is pot money, not mine) - amount won from other players when they fold = $34. So only has to work 1 time in 3 to be even. It always works more often than that.

Most of the time these limpers have two overcards, small pair of say sixes, suited connectors, or just trash. They almost never have JJ or above or would have raised preflop. You are in small blind and could have anything, they figure, either an 8 or a 5. It is really difficult for them to call the turn unless they improve.

Well, you say, I am not a believer because how often do those flops come? Well they don't have to come that often since you are getting 13:1 on your preflop call, and hell I may hit the flop anyway with my trash and have a real hand. Keep in mind you aren't investing anything into the pot after the flop unless 1) it is a favorable flop to do this 2) there is a better and no callers (maybe one caller depending on who the player is). I think if you are not always giving up unless you hit a monster like the ~4% quoted it is profitable to make loose calls from SB.

This works consistantly as long as you are the right kind of table. Can't be tricky players, have to be loose/weak. But the good news is that this describes alot of live $3-6 and $4-8 tables in Vegas. If you are worried that people will pick up on this keep in mind you only get dealt 35-40 hands an hour live and you are in the BB/SB therefore 8 times an hour. Most of the time the preflop scenerio doen't occur so you are only doing this maybe 1 time/hour. And the bottom line is it only has to work one time in three to be profitable. Fails twice = 2 x $18 = $36 of your money lost -----> works once win $36 of their money. Sometimes the pot will be bigger, sometimes smaller but the numbers I added up are a pretty good average.

Added bonus: the times it fails and the guy just calls you down with his trips after you shut everyone else out of HIS pot with trash are priceless.

I don't think offsuit junk can make strong enough hands to be profitable in big fields.

Originally Posted by Beavis68

I don't think offsuit junk can make strong enough hands to be profitable in big fields.

I agree, that's why you have to be willing to aggressively go after these pots with a favorable flop. You won't win enough based on made hand value alone.

The key is that you are in the blinds and people will assume you could have any two (which you do), and the relationship of bet size to pot size in limit poker makes it such that you don't have to win these that often when there are alot of limpers in the pot to make it profitable in the long run. It increases your variance short term, but long term +EV play.

Doesn't work as well in NL because the amount you have to bet is 60-100% to make it meaningful. Limit with 5 limpers and the big blind, a bet is only 1/7th pot and a checkraise (much better IMO) would only be 1/4th if assume one bettor before you. Math works better in limit.

Originally Posted by TexArcher

You can't polish a turd, even for half price...

No, but you can buff out the corn.

In a NL tourney, you could play these hands in the early stages (low blinds) because of the implied odds when you hit. I had J4d in the SB the other day when it was 50/75. 4 or so limpers, I looked at the BB (who had a bad habit of looking at his cards out of turn) and could tell he wasn't too happy, so I figured I'm getting 17:1 on my money. Sure enough I flopped an OESD, and ended up splitting the pot with another player (who made the same straight as me) when I hit on the turn. So even with my split I ended up reeling in 8.5:1 on my $25.

But implied odds are a huge difference between NL and Limit (which I struggle to understand, but bow down to those that do).