Originally Posted by Jason75

No, but you can buff out the corn.

In a NL tourney, you could play these hands in the early stages (low blinds) because of the implied odds when you hit. I had J4d in the SB the other day when it was 50/75. 4 or so limpers, I looked at the BB (who had a bad habit of looking at his cards out of turn) and could tell he wasn't too happy, so I figured I'm getting 17:1 on my money. Sure enough I flopped an OESD, and ended up splitting the pot with another player (who made the same straight as me) when I hit on the turn. So even with my split I ended up reeling in 8.5:1 on my $25.

But implied odds are a huge difference between NL and Limit (which I struggle to understand, but bow down to those that do).

Agreed completely with all of this, my initial comment was only directed at limit. I won't fold anything from the SB in a NL tourney early on because it's so cheap (and looks so weak to fold).

And I call with rags from the SB a fair amount of the time in NL cash as well against the right mix of players that can be walked on if they miss the flop.

Originally Posted by TexArcher

Agreed completely with all of this, my initial comment was only directed at limit.

And I call with rags from the SB a fair amount of the time in NL cash as well against the right mix of players that can be walked on if they miss the flop.

I don't see what the difference is in the way you play this in NL vs limit. I think it is the exact opposite in fact. The relationship of bet to pot size means that you can be LESS successful in limit than NL doing this and still be +EV.

But once again, I have to clarify that my whole arguement in this thread is that the table (and BB) has to be weak/passive. This is not a hard requirement in live play at my usual levels. If I am getting 14:1 odds and am the best/most aggressive player at the table I would be foolish not to call. I have been trying to move up and am playing 6/12 lately and am not so loose in the SB because the players sometimes are better and trickier, and the BB more likely to raise.

Growlers, you're calling 14 to 1 odds on your money when you are AT LEAST 20 to 1 to win the pot.

To get 14 to 1 odds you need 6 other limpers, right?

When was the last time anyone saw 6 limpers fold on the flop to 1 bet from the SB? So that's out.

So you need two pair or more on the flop to be able to do anything, which is about a 3.5% chance of happening. That's about 25 to 1 on your 14 to 1 call. And it might not even hold up.

What about when you flop one pair only? Are you going to play your five outers all the way down into 6 opponents out of position?

This is not even close to +EV in limit. Even with implied odds on one, two, or three callers calling you all the way down on your monster flops, you will lose money on a 10 2 off or a 7 2 off from the small blind over an infinite # of pre-flop calls. Keep calling those hands with several limpers and keep track of the results for the next month, you'll see. Sorry if this sounds overly harsh, but you're giving money away bro, this is a classic "chip-bleeder" that sounds like a reasonable play, but it's nickle and diming you to death over the course of the year...

The difference in NL is that you have so much more range in how much you can bet and you won't be running into 5 or 6 callers, more like 2 or 3, so you have a much greater chance of buying the pot on the flop. I still would only make that play in very, very selective situations, like short-handed cash where only one player limped and I was certain the BB wouldn't raise, and that both would fold if they missed the flop. Then you're just betting the odds that they both missed or that only one of them hit only one pair that he won't call due to overcards, etc, etc...

I know that for me...depending on the table, I will play much looser from the SB then from any other position IF there are limpers to support it AND BB has been passive. The more limpers, the looser I am. I've only seen the whole table limp a few times in 11K+ hands, but I have never not come in. I don't even remember what the cards were.

At these times, I feel that the pot odds + some serious implied odds of having a well disguised hand and the likely hood that somebody improved to second best are so good that any hand is playable. Keep in mind that if you hit your hand, somebody else probably got a piece of the flop. You do have to be carefull with coordinated flops but those are easy to get out of anyway.

Having said all that, I can't think of any specific hands that I've hit and won a major pot. I can say that I have seen it done with some freaky hands. These pots, however, are usually won by people who play goofy hands from any position

Right or wrong, that's how I look at it.

if your current odds are 20 to 1 I wouldn't fold any hand. Your implied odds on a split set are enough to justify a call if you factor in 2 pair hands. you are getting sufficient odds to call.

Suppose 1 out of 2 times you hit 2 pair or better (5%) you lose to a bigger hand, the final pot will be in the 30-40sb range costing you maybe 4 or 5 to play out. otherwise you fold on the flop. over the course of 1,000 hands in this situation you will,

lose .5 sb 950 times for a total loss of 475 sbs

lose 4.5 sb's when you hit a good hand but lose 25 times for a total loss of 112 sb's.

win 35 sb's 25 times for a total win of 875 sb's.

total net win, 288 sb's or .288 sb's per hand. pretty easy call to me. the 5% is a little high its actually like 4% but that would neccisitate a calculator to do the math so minus some of that EV. I think a call in this spot is worth at least .2 Sb's to me, .1 BB profit per hand is a simple call for me.

On a side note I think the long term implications of your opponents seeing these hands from you will have a cumulative effect.

My last 1404 hands from the SB I have a 54% VP$IP and net earnings of 36.35.

Of course... could be that it'd be higher if I had just played my solid hands and folded my weak ones. But I'm comfortable enough postflop against the usual opposition to limp any two suited or connected cards.

People who say that you're 27-1 against so you can't call with 20-1 odds... you fold your pairs when you're getting 5-1 to call? When you get the set if you can't get at least 1 big and one small bet there you're not playing.

lol, this hand just happened...

Seat 2: Chicago Kid ($97 in chips)
Seat 4: corkscru ($34.10 in chips)
Seat 5: Justfunnin ($20 in chips)
Seat 6: buffdude78 ($87.70 in chips)
Seat 8: PJofTheGame ($40 in chips)
ANTES/BLINDS
PJofTheGame posts blind ($0.50), Chicago Kid posts blind ($1), Justfunnin posts blind ($1).

PRE-FLOP
corkscru calls $1, Justfunnin checks, buffdude78 calls $1, PJofTheGame calls $0.50, Chicago Kid checks.

FLOP [board cards 6C,QD,9H ]
PJofTheGame checks, Chicago Kid checks, corkscru bets $1, Justfunnin folds, buffdude78 calls $1, PJofTheGame bets $2, Chicago Kid folds, corkscru calls $1, buffdude78 calls $1.

TURN [board cards 6C,QD,9H,5H ]
PJofTheGame bets $2, corkscru bets $4, buffdude78 folds, PJofTheGame bets $4, corkscru bets $4, PJofTheGame calls $2.

RIVER [board cards 6C,QD,9H,5H,10S ]
PJofTheGame checks, corkscru bets $2, PJofTheGame calls $2.

SHOWDOWN
corkscru shows [ 5C,9C ]
PJofTheGame shows [ QS,6S ]
PJofTheGame wins $30.
SUMMARY
Dealer: buffdude78
Pot: $31, (including rake: $1)
Chicago Kid, loses $1
corkscru, loses $13
Justfunnin, loses $1
buffdude78, loses $3
PJofTheGame, bets $13, collects $30, net $17