Welcome to PokerForums.org

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 11
  1. #1
    Chaser
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Posts
    103

    Default QQ hand, 3 hearts flopped

    Read: Villain seems to be ok. A little weak, except when he raises preflop. Whenever he raises preflop, he usually follows up with a flop bet, regardless of whether he has it or not. He's picked up a bunch pots on the flop like that, when ppl fold.

    At this point, my image is a little bit agressive. I've shown a couple good bluffs, so people think I'm bluffing more than I actually am.

    Villain is SB with about $125
    Hero is BB with about $140
    1/2 NL ring game

    Hero is dealt [Qh, Qc]

    Folds around to Villain, he raises to $7. Hero re-raises to $20. Villain calls.

    Flop ($40): [10h, Kh, 6h]
    Villain goes All-In for an additional $105
    Hero??

    EDIT-- Just thought I'd add, that as a read, I'd put the villain on KK, AA, JJ, 10/10, AK, AQ, AJ, A10...I'm about 98% sure he doesn't have a flush on the flop.

  2. #2
    Poker Hustler Jason75's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    San Francisco, CA
    Posts
    1,230

    Default

    This is a tough one. Given that the Kh is on the board, I think that someone holding the Jh might make this play. The only hand we really fear is a set, and I'd throw out 66, so we're thinking KK or TT. The other hand that would suck to face is AxAh.

    Our first task is to understand the odds the pot is giving us (always the first task).

    It's $105 to call $145 pot, or just about 1.4:1 (100:140).

    So are we getting our odds here to call?

    There are 3 situations here: 1) We're facing AxAh or AhKx and drawing close to dead, 2) we're facing a set or top pair (where the kicker is not Ah) and are about 35% to win
    3) we're facing what amounts to a bluff or worse heart draw (like JxJh, 9x9h, etc.) and have got to be about 90% to win.

    So based on his actions, what % do we assign to each of these scenarios?

    His all-in here seems like a peculiar play no matter what (not giving us a lot of info), so I would likely just assign an even split to these three - 33% each.

    So situation 1) 33% * 0% = 0% (that one's easy)
    Situation 2) 33% * 35% = 12% (just take 1/3 of 36)
    Situation 3) 33% * 90% = 30% (same thing as above)

    or about 42%. 40% is 3:2 (1:1.5), so it looks like this is just about a break even call.

    I'd want a little more than break even here, so I probably fold.

  3. #3
    Poker Hustler Jason75's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    San Francisco, CA
    Posts
    1,230

    Default

    Course, after re-reading my post, just realized I forgot the Ah flush draw. So I'd probably have split it up 4 ways (25% each) with us being 50% to win against Ah-x (other than AhKx, obviously).

    So redoing those calcs:

    1) 25% * 0 = 0
    2) 25% * 35% = 9%
    3) 25% * 90% = 22%
    4) 25% * 50% = 12.5%

    So we're actually about 44%, again just above break even. I'd still fold. But this shows you that even when you make a mistake, as long as you go through a logical thought process you'll usually come out ok.

  4. #4
    Fish
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    73

    Default

    Just out of curiousity, why do you think hed be willing to scare you out of the hand if he has an overpair along with the nut flush draw. Your reraise screams QQ-AA, maybe AK. If hes pushing like that hes either gotten clever (knowing you have a high pp and are interested in the hand and may call, if he has you beat) or more likely, is afraid of you drawing to a better flush then he may be which would be the case with the king out there. The only thing i worry about here is a set.

  5. #5
    Check Raiser coash's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    AUstralia
    Posts
    545

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason75
    Our first task is to understand the odds the pot is giving us (always the first task).
    i've just started reading about this in harrington's book. i seriously need practice

  6. #6
    Poker Hustler Jason75's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    San Francisco, CA
    Posts
    1,230

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadypac
    Just out of curiousity, why do you think hed be willing to scare you out of the hand if he has an overpair along with the nut flush draw. Your reraise screams QQ-AA, maybe AK. If hes pushing like that hes either gotten clever (knowing you have a high pp and are interested in the hand and may call, if he has you beat) or more likely, is afraid of you drawing to a better flush then he may be which would be the case with the king out there. The only thing i worry about here is a set.
    My %'s were based on having no read of the opponent. I would ask you how you even know our opponent is even thinking about what we have. This is a SB vs BB hand - I personally would have reraised with KT, A8, QT or better to find out if this is a steal or they've picked up a serious hand. The fact that they didn't reraise back leads me to believe they don't have AA, KK, or AK, but I've often seen people cap the action with these hands by calling as well.

    If you feel like you can get this kind of read on him, then adjust the % for each hand. I would not adjust any of them to below 10% for the simple fact that just because you would play their hand differently, doesn't mean that at least 1 out of ten people aren't going to play it like this opponent.
    Last edited by Jason75; 10-30-2005 at 07:52 AM.

  7. #7
    Chaser
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    157

    Default

    I would be asking myself why he would go all-in so quickly on the flop. If I had the nut flush, I doubt all-in would be my move. If I only had a flush draw I doubt I would go all-in.

    What two cards would cause a person to go all-in here and in the face of strength as well. It seems that there would have be a likely best hand with some sort of worry. If I have the Ah with another A or K, then I am not that worried. If I have a set, I am plenty worried.

    I conclude he has a set of kings and wants to end the hand right there.

  8. #8
    Chaser Tristan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    162

    Default

    It seems to me that the player is trying to scare you off here. Nobody in their right mind pushes all-in with the nuts at this point, especially if they're first to act. The chance of them holding a King is what should be worrying you, whereas the flush is worrying them, hence the all-in so early.

    What would you do in the same situation? That being having top pair and being 90% sure your opponent hasn't hit the flush, but may get it on a draw, while you've already spent $20 on the hand.

    Sensible course of action was to fold because QQ is a great hand, but you were facing too many chances of coming up short with that King on the board. Don't worry about the flush. Hitting those to begin with is rare enough without considering the prospect of hitting them on the flop. However, if you are 85%+ sure you have the correct read on a particular player, go with your gut and call. If only so that you may respect yourself in the morning.

  9. #9
    Mike McDermott Av8tor009's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Southington, CT
    Posts
    3,334

    Default

    seems like the bettor is protecting a king, maybe with a flush re-draw... let it go..
    Lead Columnist, BluffAway Online Poker Magazine


    Online Tournament Wins: 11

  10. #10
    Poker Hustler Jason75's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    San Francisco, CA
    Posts
    1,230

    Default

    Just as a little aside, there are plenty of players who go all in when they hit a huge hand. They're typically novices who just shit their pants when they hit the jackpot and shove all their chips in.

    I use a note "pisses themself" for this type of player, and will be very wary of calling their all in.

    Also, an all-in play on the flush draw can be a good play, because some % of the time your opponent will fold and you'll win, and 40% of the time when they call you'll draw the flush out and win. So it gives us 2 ways to win the pot. This type of semi-bluff all-in move is fairly common in NL tourneys. In fact, I'm sure many saw Greg Raymer do this last when he had AJd and the board came with 2 diamonds against Mike Mattisaw.

    That being said, I actually think I made a mistake by not considering the nut flush (AQh, AKh, AJh, ATh, etc). They'd go in the same category as AhKx and AxAh, so maybe I'd up the percentage there for this category of hands and decrease the other two. Something like 40/20/20.
    Last edited by Jason75; 10-30-2005 at 04:26 PM.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •