Good idea or jst plain stupid?

**Trons** · 10-29-2005

Ok, I've recognized a huge weakness in my game. My post flop play. I've read SSH and have been difficulty applying it. I've spent a bunch of time reading on the net about post flop play and I've tried to do my best, but it doesn't seem to be helping. I've come up with a new stratagy.

After over 11k hands, my VPiP is less the 19%. The last 6k+ hands I've been rotateing between seeing more flops (usually ends up in a losing session) and playing tight (I get my money back).

I've decided (unless I see some strong arguements against) to start seeing more flops in general. Start playing more hands from LP when I can do it for 1 bet. Open my starting hand selection from EP a little (not much because I hate EP. Playing a lot more hands from SB when I can do it for half a bet.

My goal for this is to get much more experience playing post flop. Recently, I'll try loosening up (lose some money) then tighten back up (get my money back). This has the effect of causing my BR to stay where it's at but is allowing my post flop play to stay weak. I'm hoping that by forcing myself to play more hands, I'll force myself to gain the experience I need to improve my post flop play...thoughts?

**Jason75** · 10-29-2005

Trons,

I think you're primarily a limit player, right? I don't know about limit, but I've found the easiest way to improve my "default" post-flop play is by improving my pre-flop play. Namely, raising to win hands PF when i'm out of position in the SB & BB, tightening up in EP, making a point to limp with big hands in EP and show them down so I can loosen up with suited connectors (but then only playing monsters with SC after the flop). This makes my decisions much easier after the flop.

If you want to play Phil Ivey style (super aggressive), it depends a lot less on what the cards are and a whole lot more on your reads of your opponents. It takes a lot of observation skills, and frankly I think it's hardest to do online (where you can't actually see your opponent). You also have to be able to switch gears quickly, going from tight to aggressive to super aggressive (pushing any two cards) in the space of a single hand when you sense your opponents are starting to get a read on you. It's the art of playing opposite the table and your table image at the same time, and always going one step beyond what your opponent is thinking. In my experience, it's really fuckin' hard and I've met with only mixed success doing it online.

I agree practice makes perfect, but consider not poking holes in your post-flop game by making bad PF decisions.

**Aces-o-8s** · 10-29-2005

Have you ever read Gary Carson's 'The Complete Book of Hold 'Em Poker'? It has a series of tables for starting hands from different positions and with the number of limper/raisers and so on. It's (IMO) a great guide for what hands to play, from where and strategies to keep the opps unbalanced.

I had one opps comment to me that he couldn't understand my play or get a read on me because I played so differently from hand to hand. Actually I was playing tighter or looser depending on my position and the number of players entering ahead of me or that could from behind. I was varing my betting patterns according to position as well as for overcards, pairs and drawing hands. Getting a read on me meant having a good understanding of limit poker strategies, position and not just what constitutes a starting hand but also how to play (bet) various starting hands. Throw in a few deceptive moves and you seem to be playing all over the place.

I've actually tighten up more than even Carson conservative guides recommend because of the huge number of very loose players I'm running into. I figure even a very good/tight player is going to have a tough time of it if a 10 ring game has 4-5 loose players playing every hand and not having the betting power of NL holdem to force them out with the rags they play. Although they may individually all be losers, they can really put a good player on a losing tilt collectively and at the lower limit games the jackals (and lunatics) run in packs!

**Marm** · 10-29-2005

Stick With SSH.

You dont want to be the opposite of the table, you want to be just more correct. IE. IF you're at a loose table, you want to be just a bit tighter than the rest of the table. All that dead money in the pot makes marginal hands very profitable. And thats the point of SSH. They recommend playing hands like Q9s UTG with the right conditions because it becomes a profitable hand.

19% is good, between Beavis's and my experience, slightly, very slightly looser is pretty good for thre tables your playing.

And post-flop in SSH is actually quite simple. If you're a favorite, bet. If you have a good chance to become the favorite, call. Otherwise fold. Basically, if your hand has positive equity, then you want to be playing.

**Phytopath** · 10-29-2005

In all honesty Trons, yes you can play more hands in later position. But LHE is a game that requires alot of discipline and learning to play better post flop is a difficult thing to learn.

The games that you are playing are probably alot tighter than the games described in SSH, I think this is where you are encountering problems.

I think you should just stick to doing what you are doing, just be more aggressive on the 'flop' try and find out where you are, ahead, behind etc... If you have reads on players and know they aren't gonna fold, and probably aren't going to bet then take the free cards.

Use your judgement, figure out if your hand may be good and bet it out for value. Playing short handed also forces you to play alot better post flop, though I am not sure any short handed games are offered at the limits you play.

Playing marginal hands in LP can get you in trouble and are -EV moves when there is not alot of limpers in front of you. It also screams weakness and you'll often get raised by people behind you and even the blinds. You can play more hands from the SB, but don't go crazy. Suited connectors, suited aces and some others are obviously playable. Look at the odds the pot is laying you, if it is 10-1 or more you can play alot of hands etc..

**Trons** · 10-29-2005

I appreciate all the advice. Yes Marm, the tables I'm playing are a lot tighter then suggested in SSH. I do play limit and my preflop play (imho) is good. IE: when in doubt, fold it out....

Where my post flop play is lacking is in getting reads, when to raise for information (which sucks when it's a passive player because even if he's holding the nut str8, sometimes they won't reraise to let me know giving me the impression their holding top pair and my trips are good), when I'm ahead with marginal hands, when I'm behind with strong hands, when I can get away with bluffing, when I can value bet to make it look like a bluff, how to handle maniacs, how to handle fish, how to handle calling stations, blah blah blah...

I'm not looking for specific information (at this time) on the above shortcomings of my game, I'm aware of them and I'm working on them. I do post HH's of hands that confused me or I had second thoughts about. I haven't posted a HH lately because I haven't been playing lately.

I know I can tighten up my preflop play, and use the fit or fold theory of post flop play, but I feel I'm leaving a lot of money on the table with this. I shouldn't complain, it got me as far as it's gotten me, but I feel I should be doing better and I don't want to tackle higher limits until I'm more comfortable with my post flop play. Basically, my confidence is shot when I get past the flop and I know I am making a lot of errors and the only way, at this point, I can think of to fix that is practice, practice, practice.

**bboy** · 10-29-2005

i have only read the first post, and the answer is play shorthanded.

**Trons** · 10-29-2005

why?

**bboy** · 10-30-2005

// more hands, actions, postflop decisions with more marginal hands for practice at shorthanded play

**growlers** · 10-30-2005

Originally Posted by bboy

// more hands, actions, postflop decisions with more marginal hands for practice at shorthanded play

That's actually a great idea.

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