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  1. #1
    Check Raiser growlers's Avatar
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    Default JJ hand - thoughts?

    Little help please? $4-8 LIMIT HE game at Wynn, this was my second hand at table as I sat down in BB so no reads on anyone and didn't know how the table "felt" as far as agressive, calling stations, etc.

    Dealt to me SB:

    5 limpers, I call $2, BB checks.

    Flop (7 players, pot $28):

    I check, next 4 check, CO bets $4, button raises to $8, I raise to $12, all the others fold, CO calls, button calls.

    Turn (3 players, pot $64):

    I bet $8, CO calls, button calls.

    River (3 players, pot $88):

    River Play??????

    I'll also invite discussion about the preflop call vs. raise issue, if any wishes to laud or blast away go for it but I think calling is the marginal right play for reasons I'll explain if it comes up.
    But the river play - bet or check/call? What am I accomplishing by betting? Is this a value bet or a "only called/raised by a better hand" situation?

  2. #2
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    Default

    i know what you are thinking preflop - raising is still the best play

    just bet the flop... why get so tricky?

    definately bet the river

  3. #3
    Poker Hustler Trons's Avatar
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    I don't agree with bboy's comment about a raise PF. I know it's been discussed on here a lot, but the fact of the matter is when you're SB, the only person going to fold is BB, everybody else is going to call (if there's not somebody slow playing Aces who might reraise). I could be wrong, but isn't raising PF good for A) getting people to fold or B) when you have a power hand and want to build the pot? Since JJ is subject to several overcards that are likely in limpers and nobody is going to fold who's already limped, why raise here?

    The flop, I would have bet outright. Buttons raise would bother me slightly. CO betting could be anything from a semi-bluff with 2 overcards (risky with 5 people) to trips. Buttons raise of CO is probably a real hand. He probably has an overpair at least, how agressive is he post flop? I would expect that anybody who has QQ or better to raise PF. Is either button or CO the type to come-in PF with low suited connectors? Your play is screaming trips and the fact that they didn't fold to your turn bet surprises me and would scare me, but I would guess that you're still ahead. I would expect anybody who has trips to raise the turn.

    River, I would bet it out. Without a decent read (none mentioned) I can't imagine either of them playing the way they did with a hand that the 9 completes, except 99. At this point if you're raised on the river, somebody has the trips and it sucks, but there isn't anything you can do about it. I would put CO on Axs (that paired on the flop, worst case is A7spades), Button on 88-TT. I would bet out and pray that neither of them got lucky.
    Last edited by Trons; 10-29-2005 at 04:40 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jason75
    I like trons' advice.
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  4. #4
    Fish Jackemy's Avatar
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    Preflop - just call. No one is going away for one more bet and JJ is junk with a family pot. Play for the set should really be your only thought.

    Flop - good flop for you. Bet out as there is no need to be tricky. Button raise could be a drawing hand or a set or A9. I'd reraise to like you did to find out where you are at.

    Turn - Fairly harmless. Bet it like you did.

    River - The spade flush came. I'd be worried about the CO as the bet on the flop smooth call on the raise and the call on the turn suggests something like . I'd check call this as there are enough pot odds to pay off the flush and there is no reason open yourself to two bets at the river. You can also get away from the hand if it comes back two bets to you.

  5. #5
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    Money in poker comes from your opponents mistakes, raising makes their mistaken limps twice as expensive.

    I have no real clue how to play the rest of the hand now. I don't think I like check- 3- betting the hand. The play now is too player dependant.

  6. #6
    PokerForums God Marm's Avatar
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    PF, its probably 50/50 as to what you do. I like the limp, I also like raising. JJ is probably the only hand I wills ay this here. TT is a definate limp,and QQ is an easy raise.

    Flop, Iwould have bet out, but the CR went ok, so no worries. But it did tell us a lot here, we're not up against a set. Maybe two pair (76s), but I doubt it. And I doubt we're up against overpairs, given the PF action. I think we're up against under pairs of some sort, maybe 1 guys just has overs.

    Bet this the whole way, Hands like A6 will call you, so this is a +EV move.
    Marm is back, maybe. Been off for 3 years. Rusty as Hell.

    Luck is a Residue of Design.

  7. #7
    Check Raiser Aces-o-8s's Avatar
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    The only hands I'm throwing in a pf raise from the blinds are AA,KK & QQ. The rest I come in with just a call.

    I'm also betting out on the flop with this many limpers still in and hoping for a raise from a late position so I can re-raise and force out as many as possible in between. Also, I want to control the action if I can even if I am in the worst position - a major favour in my favour is that the blinds are expected to have rag cards that would fit this flop.

    Turn bet was good; With both CO and Button calling I have to figure them for small pairs or str8 draw although the draw is less of a worry since neither bet - so haven't made it. A flush draw is possible but also not too likely as it would have to be a backdoor flush needing runner-runner - so only a fish would chase it without a pair or open-ended str8 for help. No re-raise so a set or two pair is not a concern and neither is an over-pair to my Jacks (they would have been raised pf) - I figure JJ is still the best hand.

    River - runner-runner flush draw (the fish will be happy) and another possible str8 card but how loose would you have to be to play 10-8 after the turn (8-5 or 5-3 would have bet on the turn). X-7 spades is about all I'm worried about. I would probably bet out 90% of the time since both have called the turn and I could only expect a check-thru on the river (unless one has the flush) so would lose a bet by a small pair keeping me honest. Since this is a live game, I would really be eye-balling the opps to see who is anxious to get in a bet and who has given up and are ready to muck.

  8. #8
    Poker Professional Girevik's Avatar
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    I think you have to raise PF - you've probably got the best hand so get the money in there.

    I don't think I like the check-raise on the flop. I can see doing it if the guy immediately to you left had bet, but I'm not sure you're going to thin the field much with the raise when the first guy already has money in this round - guess that depends on what you've seen him do before.

    I think the river is probably a check-call situation, but I think it's close. There are a couple of straight possibilities, as well as the flush - I'm not sure I see top pair calling a bet here so I don't know what you're going to get called with that doesn't have you beat. If the other player is an aggressive player who likes to bluff, a check-raise might be a good play too.
    I'm CDO. It's like OCD, but everying is in order just like it should be.

  9. #9
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    Not raisin this hand pre-flop is a terrible leak.

  10. #10
    Check Raiser growlers's Avatar
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    Thanks for the thoughts - love the discussion as I like to see how others play.

    Heres's my thinking:Preflop: JJ with 5 limpers and BB left to act - I like to play JJ against one or two people for high hand value, or against 6+ people for set value. I hate playing JJ against 3-5 people becuase even if you get lucky and flop three undercards it is very hard to protect your hand and any overcard absolutely kills you. If you are playing against 1-2 people and flop undercards you may be able to get one out on the flop and then if an overcard comes on the turn/river at least you got a shot still as they may not have paired up.
    I felt like with 5 limpers, if I raised, I would drop the BB and maybe 1-2 people (tough to know though second hand at the table) and would be playing against 4-5 and out of position the whole hand. If there were 3 limpers, I raise every time. I also didn't want to get limp-reraised and that is a concern since I hadn't see everybody play yet and some people do that alot.
    At live games I feel like reads are very important and since second hand at the table wanted to be able to get out cheap if a bad flop since out of position. I agree with the poster that said QQ KK AA raise every time, JJ is where I draw the line and I base it on reads and way the table plays. I think either way is OK, I don't think it is a "huge leak" by any means in this situation, it may be a minor leak, but I said I often would raise here anyway, just didn't this time.

    Flop: This is where I TOTALLY disagree. You have a good but very vulnerable hand and you are out of position. YOU ABSOLUTELY HAVE TO LIMIT THE FIELD. The best way to do this is a checkraise. The early position people probably have two overcards and you have to get them out. This is NOT fancy play syndrome - this is good limit poker. There is NO way 6 people are checking this around. Just betting out does not protect your hand and anyone with two overcards will have pot odds to call a single bet. Betting out is terrible LIMIT poker in my opinion, much worse than the questionable prelop mistake and my probable river mistake.

    Turn: Have to bet.

    River: I dunno - that is the main reason I posted this. I think I missed a value bet. I couldn't figure out what the CO called two bets cold on the flop and then the turn. I feared two pair from CO as he limped late and may have with any two suited, one gappers, etc. I thought maybe my three bet on the flop convinced them I had a set. I had the button pegged on A7 as raising to protect a vulnerable hand on the flop but worried about the CO. I also though maybe one called the turn after picking up the flush draw.
    At any rate, I checked, they both checked, I won the pot with Jacks and the button indeed showed A7o. The cutoff mucked - I guess he had a pair and a straight draw but who knows.
    The A7o would have called so I missed a value bet. You can leak alot of money at limit not value betting so I am trying to improve this, very frustrating to me when I %$#@ one up.
    Last edited by growlers; 10-29-2005 at 02:57 PM.

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