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  1. #1
    Poker Professional Pok 7's's Avatar
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    Default Good laydown or good bluff?

    What's your opinion? I got thrown this hand back to back and was fairly new to the table, last hand was only against one person post flop and was trying to bluff (with a K2o) after an ace hit on the flop (and paired on the river). Neither of the players in this hand was the same guy. Just wondering if you guys would consider this a steal attempt or he had trips here and should I have called? (Keep in mind the level I'm playing at) Thanks in advance.

    PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (8 handed) converter

    CO ($1.08)
    Button ($5.02)
    SB ($1.94)
    BB ($2.06)
    UTG ($2.64)
    Hero ($4.06)
    MP1 ($4.16)
    MP2 ($2.09)

    Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with , .
    UTG calls $0.02, Hero raises to $0.08, 4 folds, SB calls $0.07, 1 fold, UTG calls $0.06.

    Flop: ($0.26) , , (3 players)
    SB bets $0.1, UTG raises to $0.2, Hero calls $0.20, SB calls $0.10.

    Turn: ($0.86) (3 players)
    SB bets $0.1, UTG raises to $1, Hero folds, SB folds.

    Final Pot: $1.96

    Results in white below:
    No showdown. UTG wins $1.96.
    Last edited by Pok 7's; 10-26-2005 at 08:19 AM.
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  2. #2
    Poker Professional Girevik's Avatar
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    Default

    I'd have to guess he acually had a 7. You normaly don't see someone bluff twice out of position, especially when they got two calls the first time.

    I don't like your flop play - I think you need to either fold or come over the to there. If you're behind, you're drawing very slim and dont' have odds to call anything. If you're ahead, why give the free card. Plus I think that gives you more info - if he calls and bets out again on the turn, or if he re-raises, you can be almost SURE he's got the 7.
    I'm CDO. It's like OCD, but everying is in order just like it should be.

  3. #3
    Poker Professional Pok 7's's Avatar
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    Default Just to clairify

    I was incorrect on my description of the hand prior (was trying to go from memory) but I'll post it anyway, just because.

    PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (8 handed) converter

    UTG ($1.10)
    UTG+1 ($5.05)
    MP1 ($1.98)
    MP2 ($2.46)
    CO ($2.68)
    Hero ($3.22)
    SB ($4.19)
    BB ($0.42)

    Preflop: Hero is Button with , .
    2 folds, MP1 calls $0.02, MP2 calls $0.02, CO calls $0.02, Hero raises to $0.1, 1 fold, BB calls $0.08, MP1 folds, MP2 calls $0.08, CO folds.

    Flop: ($0.35) Ace of Diamonds (dosen't show up here), , (3 players)
    BB bets $0.1, MP2 calls $0.10, Hero calls $0.10.

    Turn: ($0.65) (3 players)
    BB bets $0.22 (All-In), MP2 calls $0.22, Hero calls $0.22.

    River: ($1.31) (3 players, 1 all-in)
    MP2 checks, Hero checks.

    Final Pot: $1.31

    Results in white below:
    BB has Kd 5d (two pair, aces and eights).
    MP2 has 7s Ts (two pair, aces and eights).
    Hero has Qh Qc (two pair, aces and queens).
    Outcome: Hero wins $1.31.
    Last edited by Marm; 10-26-2005 at 10:52 AM. Reason: Trying to fix the AD
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  4. #4
    Poker Hustler Jason75's Avatar
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    Default

    Because you have position here, I don't mind your call on the flop, but I think you then have to consider coming over the top on the turn. I mean, you're not really drawing to a queen are you? So I'd only make this move if it were to take the pot away on the turn or river. If you are drawing, you're not getting anywhere near the odds you need to make it.

    Think about what the UTG might have - something like A5-AT, pocket pairs from 66 to 99, and perhaps suited connectors. Which of those hands would he raise the flop with? Probably 66 - 99 (you're drawing nearly dead if he has 77), A7, A8-AT (2 overcards to the board against a raiser and a caller with very low board). Maybe AA if he's cold blooded enough to slowplay it twice PF - but most people aren't so I'd throw that out.

    So what are we losing to that would raise here?
    A7, 87, 97, 67, 55. I'd throw out 77, seems like he'd just call the SB bet to slowplay with quads.

    And what are we beating that might raise here?
    A5-A6, A8-AT, 66, 88, 99, 68s.

    When the turn comes 8s, the board now has a flush and straight draw on it, and he makes a move to take the pot down. This tells me he does not have a full house (78), most likely A7, 68s, 88, 99, 67, or 97.

    The 8s was really not a good card for us (but again, what was a good card for us other than a Q?), and I think we fold like a cheap suit here. Because we didn't raise on the flop, there's no way to know what he has.

    BTW, I lost a hand like this today. Early in a tourney, picked up JJ in the SB. 5 limpers to me, I reraise to 10xBB, UTG calls, everyone else folds. Flop comes 774 with 2 diamonds. I move all in to protect my hand, UTG calls with a friggin 97o and that's then end of my day. Bad play by me (should have just called PF that early and tried to hit a set, and should have checked on the flop).
    Last edited by Jason75; 10-26-2005 at 09:41 AM.

  5. #5
    Poker Professional Pok 7's's Avatar
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    Hmmm so far I got 1 reraise on flop, and 1 reraise on the turn. I can see reraising on the flop but, if I reraise on the turn what do I fire back with another $1? At that point wouldn't I be pretty much be commited to calling anything on the river? I'd basically be putting him just about all in at that point
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  6. #6
    Poker Hustler Jason75's Avatar
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Pok 7's
    Hmmm so far I got 1 reraise on flop, and 1 reraise on the turn. I can see reraising on the flop but, if I reraise on the turn what do I fire back with another $1? At that point wouldn't I be pretty much be commited to calling anything on the river? I'd basically be putting him just about all in at that point
    I agree, you really need to raise him all in on the turn if you're going to make this play. That's the path you've chosen by calling (and not raising) on the flop, unless you're drawing to a Q, which you're getting terrible odds to do.

    If you're not prepared to do this, you should fold or raise on the flop, not call.

  7. #7
    PokerForums God Marm's Avatar
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    I think you need to make a pot size bet on the flop while its still cheap. These guys are just dickin around with these min bets, need to drop the hammer on the flop and see whos who.
    Marm is back, maybe. Been off for 3 years. Rusty as Hell.

    Luck is a Residue of Design.

  8. #8
    Poker Professional Pok 7's's Avatar
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    Thanks guys, seems like raise on the flop was the play and I missed it. Not that I might have won but would've had a better idea where I stood. This is an area I feel I need to work on in my game. I think if I'm not the one doing the betting I find myself just calling more often than reraising. Which I'm guessing I should try incorporating a little more. According to PT I'm not a passive player, but maybe I'm just not getting as much info as I could with my betting?
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