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  1. #1
    Check Raiser growlers's Avatar
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    Default QQ hand advice please -Limit.

    This seemed like a really simple hand and then I started thinking more about it.

    $6-12 Limit hold'em at the Mirage here in Vegas. I had a aggressive image and had only shown down pretty good hands - times I stole I didn't have to show. Villian is actually a pretty solid player but plays pretty straghtforwardly - not real tricky.

    Dealt to me MP:
    I raise first in to $12, everyone folds except BB who looks annoyed and calls.

    Flop:

    He checks, I bet $6 and he raises to $12. I looked at him and just knew he had an A and throw my QQ in the muck. He threw his kicker in the muck and folded his A face up. Now I'm not posting this because of the laydown because it is a raise or fold situation and based on this player it wasn't hard to throw it away - I was 90% sure he had an ace.

    My question is: This situation is ALWAYS an autobet on he flop for me. But with this player, he is not going to call me without an A. There is no flush draw and the straight draws are mostly blocked because I have two of the queens. It seems like a free card doesn't hurt me unless a K falls and he happens to have one. On the flip side, if I am behind I only have two outs to improve except runner runner.

    So given the above what about these options:
    1)check behind hoping for a Q since only a K turn hurts me if I am ahead now and he will fold to a flop bet anyway without an A

    2) check behind and if he bets the turn raise, hoping I induced a bluff and mimicking an A

    3) check flop and then bet turn if he checks hoping he doesn't raise

    4) reraise flop trying to convince him I have a better kicker (although I think he will play any A to river)

    5) check flop AND turn and then raise a river bluff by him unless a K falls, then just call - hard to believe he won't bet the turn if he has an A if I check behind on the flop so if he checks turn he has no A

    Again, this would normally be an autobet by me every time headsup but the more I think about it the "craziest option" which is #5 almost seems like the best play......(now I realize the way I actually played it is optimal because I was able to lay down to the flop reraise but against most players I wouldn't automatically do that, so I am asking for these other situations)

    Thoughts? Thanks!

  2. #2
    Poker Hustler Trons's Avatar
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    Default

    The problem with #5 is if you check behind you're opponent could read you're weakness and bet into you on the turn regardless of what it is....If it's not a Q, you're laying it down and he wins the pot right there...even if he doesn't have an Ace, and if he does, but a Q falls, then you're really in trouble.

    I think you almost always have to bet in a situation like this HU. A) Since you raised PF, he could put you on Abetter kicker and may lay it down. B) IF he's sitting on a PP, you could get him to lay it down and not give him the chance to hit his Trips...and C) if he doesn't have the ace, he could call regardless "betting that you don't have the ace" and not realize that you could still beat him with a better PP.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jason75
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  3. #3
    Mike McDermott Av8tor009's Avatar
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    Default

    i kinda like what you did... if you are beat it is best to know right then and there.. free cards are always a bad idea unless you hold the nuts... bet the pot and win it or throw it away if raised.. you played it right IMO
    Lead Columnist, BluffAway Online Poker Magazine


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  4. #4
    Check Raiser Aces-o-8s's Avatar
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    Default

    I think this is one of those rare situations where its either raise or fold. Checking (or calling) this hand is really not an option and after the flop the bets double. Get your info asap and if your 90% sure he has an ace, I'm thinking your folding 90% of the time.

  5. #5
    PokerForums God Marm's Avatar
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    Default

    You are 90% sure he has an ace. Thats fine.

    So you bet, not fine, assuming you thought this before you bet. This is a hugely -EV bet.

    Normally, against good or crazy players, I would 3 bet this, try to blow them off a weak kicker, or tell the nutcase I really have a hand, your futile attempts will not thwart me this time.

    But from what you described, we're up against a nemo. Hes only going to give action of we're hugely beat, and hes folding if doesn't have an Ace. Our bet here accomplishes nothing.
    Marm is back, maybe. Been off for 3 years. Rusty as Hell.

    Luck is a Residue of Design.

  6. #6
    Fish
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    Default

    Marm, taking a stab in the dark here, but I'm pretty sure that's why he bet to find out the other player had an A. The check-raise is what indicated A, I don't think he put him on an A before he bet.

  7. #7
    PokerForums God Marm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by growlers
    Villian is actually a pretty solid player but plays pretty straghtforwardly - not real tricky.
    Then my comments apply even more, You have raised Preflop, hes going to give you credit for an Ace if he doesnt have one, and hes calling/raising if he does.

    Against the "simple" players, ones that you could script their play, this bet is -EV.

    Against Tricky/loose/unknowns, this is an easy Bet.
    Marm is back, maybe. Been off for 3 years. Rusty as Hell.

    Luck is a Residue of Design.

  8. #8
    Poker Professional
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    Default

    You 100% have to bet the flop

    assuming your reads are correct, he only will have trip aces here, or a ten. if you don't think he will c/r a ten, then i guess it's a fold.

    online, you usually 3bet this and then call down.

  9. #9
    Check Raiser growlers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marm
    You are 90% sure he has an ace. Thats fine.

    So you bet, not fine, assuming you thought this before you bet. This is a hugely -EV bet.

    Normally, against good or crazy players, I would 3 bet this, try to blow them off a weak kicker, or tell the nutcase I really have a hand, your futile attempts will not thwart me this time.

    But from what you described, we're up against a nemo. Hes only going to give action of we're hugely beat, and hes folding if doesn't have an Ace. Our bet here accomplishes nothing.
    Maybe I didn't write it clearly, but what I meant was that when he checkraised me I was 90% sure he had an ace so I folded. I obviously had no idea what he had until he checkraised me - I'm good but not that good

    So with that said, your bolded comment is the point of my post - I normally would auto-bet this flop 100% of the time - wondering if there is another approach that I haven't considered. Your bolded part is exactly what I'm asking about.

    So now that I've explained better, what should I have done, Marm?

  10. #10
    PokerForums God Marm's Avatar
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    ahhh.... missed that.... dont have to get grumpy...
    Marm is back, maybe. Been off for 3 years. Rusty as Hell.

    Luck is a Residue of Design.

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