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About LinkBacksThis is primarily a no-limit question. How do you guys generally handle the situation where you are out of position, have been betting aggressively because you believe you are in the lead, and then the obvious draw hits?
For example, let's say you start with AK and hit an A on a flop with two suited cards. Assume that you bet enough on the flop and turn to make a draw unprofitable, but one caller behind you sticks with it to the river when the third suit hits. What's your play from here?
I tend to bet out, usually the absolute amount of my bet on the turn (which would usually be about half to two-thirds of the pot at that point), but sometimes as much as 50% of the pot on the river. I don't like to check on the river when the draw card hits because I feel it leaves me wide open to a bluff, and so I bet somewhat in defense of that possibility. Anyone else play it this way, or do you check and then make your best decision if he bets big?
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Thread: Defensive Bets
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10-25-2005 #1River Rat
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Defensive Bets
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10-25-2005 #2Chaser
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Yes, I like to bet out on the river when a card that would make a draw hand hits. I hate checking this and then having to face a big bet that could be a bluff.
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10-25-2005 #3River Rat
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In percentage of the pot terms, how much do you usually bet?
Originally Posted by danimal
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10-25-2005 #4Mike McDermott
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there are two semi-correct plays and one horribly wrong "omg ur f**ked" play in this case...
ACCEPTABLE
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CHECK- This is a delicate catch-22... on one end you are open to a bluff.. on the other end your opponent may feel that you are setting him up for a check-raise since you might have been semi-bluffing all the way down and hit YOUR draw (which you didnt, but he doesnt know that does he?)
BET OUT at least half the pot or more, just as if the river was a blank... you will only be called by the hand that beats you, but you are in no danger of a bluff reraise unless your opponent is one cunning bastard
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UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES do you make a bitch bet (between a min bet and say a third of the pot) You will get raised every time, no matter what your opponent has... the minimum bet just screams out 'raise me,' which in some cases you want, but this isnt one of them
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10-25-2005 #5Fish
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I often like to bet the same on the river as I did on the turn when the draw hits. Some players simply will not raise, ever, without the goods. And a small flush or the bottom end of a straight will often times just call, whereas if you check they'll bet more than what they just called and you have to decide if you believe them or if they're making a move on you.
To me it's more dangerous to check, many more players are capable of betting with nothing than are capable of raising with nothing.
I like betting out the same amount as I did on the turn for two reasons, it's relatively easy to fold to a raise and it's small enough that many players will consider themselves pot committed to call with second pair.Last edited by TexArcher; 10-25-2005 at 02:18 PM.
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10-25-2005 #6Poker Hustler
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So then what do you do if you check and your opponent bets? After all, if he thinks you're looking to check raise but he's got the better hand now, of course he'll bet into you, and if he's bluffing, how can you tell the difference? Originally Posted by Av8tor009
Personally, I'd bet out most of the time between 1/3-1/2 the pot, with some occasional check/calls (if I've established before that I'm capable of check raising the river). If I'm raised, I'm done with the hand.
I think long term this will likely be +EV (after all, sometimes you'll think he hit his flush draw when he was really drawing at the straight and now the flush scares him and he folds, etc.). If you bet at it like this, you only have to be right a much smaller % of the time than if you're going to check and call a potentially bigger bet.
I just think you want to stay in the driver's seat. But this is always a difficult situation, and I'd love to hear what others do.Last edited by Jason75; 10-25-2005 at 02:36 PM.
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10-25-2005 #7Mike McDermott
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like i said, checking is dangerous.. the only thing that is completely wrong is the bitch-bet..
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10-25-2005 #8Poker Hustler
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Right, I didn't mean "WTF are you thinking by checking you moron", I meant "so what do you do once you check if they make a big bet"? Originally Posted by Av8tor009
I do really want to know what you do.
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10-25-2005 #9Mike McDermott
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this is why i only recommend the check option for the experienced player.. it depends on your read of the situation.. if it looks painfully obvious that it is an attempt at a steal (like a massive overbet of the pot) then you should call (raising is pointless since they can only call now with a hand that beats you) and if it seems as if he wants to get called or raised then obviously fold... it's more of a feel thing at that stage
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10-25-2005 #10Check Raiser
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I have no arguement with any of the threads and my preference would be to bet out in most cases.
If you had been betting to remove pot odds for a flush/str8 draw and your opps was calling based on that draw- thus making a mistake - you should be very happy - he's losing and your gaining in the long run.
If, on the other hand he's hanging on with antoher Ace-x, then you have an opportunity for a fancy play with 3 different objectives - i.e. inducing a bluff; promoting a re-raise; or saving a bet. If you believe the opponent will fold if you bet out or that you will call if he raises, then you are in the perfect position for this play. 1) check-raise if you are sure you have best hand (a missed draw may also attempt a bluff), or 2) check-call if you aren't sure. The first option gets you extra bets while the 2nd saves you a re-raise (had you bet out) in case the opps did make his draw.
This is a play that gets remembered so don't try it too often - although I had one fish who never seemed to figure it out!
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