Bad playing or just plain robbed?

**cF00** · 10-18-2005

I got the boot from a tourny just now before even the third level of blinds (extremely rare for me).
These two hands crippled me in no time:

ONE:
Seat 1: Big Kast ($1,390 in chips)
Seat 2: mechbull ($1,030 in chips)
Seat 3: Ctrok ($1,610 in chips)
Seat 4: Hickup1 ($1,620 in chips)
Seat 5: ME [, ] ($1,700 in chips)
Seat 6: hathamic ($1,690 in chips)
Seat 7: martin330 ($1,410 in chips)
Seat 8: bob0302 ($1,690 in chips)
Seat 9: Dr Blizzuff ($1,600 in chips)
Seat 10: 15TRex ($1,260 in chips)

PRE-FLOP
bob0302 calls $30, Dr Blizzuff folds, 15TRex folds, Big Kast folds, mechbull calls $30, Ctrok folds, Hickup1 folds, ME calls $30, hathamic folds, martin330 checks.

FLOP [board cards , , ]
martin330 checks, bob0302 checks, mechbull bets $70, ME calls $70, martin330 folds, bob0302 folds.

TURN [board cards , , , ]
mechbull bets $150, ME calls $150.

RIVER [board cards , , , , ]
mechbull bets $450, ME bets $900, mechbull calls $330 and is all-in.

SHOWDOWN
ME shows [ , ]
mechbull shows [ , ]
ME wins $120, mechbull wins $2,135.

COUPLE OF HANDS LATER

ANTES/BLINDS
Ctrok posts blind ($15), Hickup1 posts blind ($30).

PRE-FLOP
ME calls $30, hathamic folds, martin330 bets $90, bob0302 calls $90, Dr Blizzuff folds, 15TRex folds, david mann folds, mechbull calls $90, Ctrok folds, Hickup1 folds, Pit B0SS calls $60.

FLOP [board cards , , ]
ME bets $400, martin330 folds, bob0302 calls $400, mechbull folds.

TURN [board cards , , , ]
ME bets $940 and is all-in, bob0302 calls $820 and is all-in.

RIVER [board cards , , , , ]

SHOWDOWN
ME shows [ , ]
bob0302 shows [ , ]
ME wins $120, bob0302 wins $2,845.

**cF00** · 10-18-2005

crushing couple of hands.... forced to post blind the next two hands
needless to say i was dead on the spot

Did I play these wrong?

Hindsight says i shouldnt have allowed the first guy to control the betting but i had the nuts and he was slitting his own neck...

anyway... any input?

**Marm** · 10-18-2005

hmmm... next time hide the results, I think my answer may be skewed here.

First hand, I think I would have 3/4 potted it or so on the turn, hes got to be thinking you have a flush draw with your flop call, then the flush hits and you probably hesitated long enough to make it somewhat clear that you were considering raising. If he has a hand that is worth betting into the flush draw, he has a hand that can draw out on one. So I make him pay to draw here.

Of course, thats hindsight speaking, but I'm 80% i would have raised something there.

**Jason75** · 10-18-2005

I like your play in the first hand. On the button (it seems) with a bunch of limpers and a suited a6 - I'd also limp in and see if I could hit the flush draw.

When you make the flush, the other guy is 9% to win (all he can do is make his FH). It's just a bad beat, but remember it does happen about 1 time in 10 when you're in this situation, so just take it and think "good, that's the bad beat, now I'll win the next 9".

Don't like your play in the second hand at all. KJ offsuit UTG is a fold just about every time - it's just too easily dominated by AJ, AK, and KQ. I'd play it suited in an unopened pot from about 4th position on (5th at a really tough table) and unsuited from 5th position on. I'd limp in these middle positions with it about 50% of the time, with 50% raises. In late position I would mostly raise with it (75%/25%). On the button I'm raising to steal the blinds.

Would not call a raise with it out of position (a raise in EP of a call from your UTG position shows some real strength above your hand) - again some % of the time we'll have the best hand, but we'll lose some big pots when we're dominated and the K or J flops.

That's not the case here, however. This is just a lucky flop, but I really think we overbet on the flop. I think a 1/2 pot sized bet is what we're looking for here (~$250), with maybe another on the turn. I'm really hoping for a raise or fold, not a call (too easy to put him on the spade or OES draw rather than his 2 pair). His slow play by smooth calling is extremely risky here (2 spades and a potential OESD), but it pays off for him on the turn when he makes his boat.

Going to the river, we still have 3 outs to win and 3 more outs for a split pot. All that said, I think if I'm in this pot on the flop here, I lose a significant portion of my stack (if I give up on the turn and check/fold) or lose it all (if I decided this is where I'm making my stand).

This is why we want to limit the number of marginal hands we play like KJ: our decisions are just too difficult after the flop (though this one would sink a lot of hands).

**Aces-o-8s** · 10-18-2005

I like the analysis Jason gave and can only add one small point in regards to the 2 players you went up against and how you might adjust your game strategy to compensate for their luck and one in regards to pre-flop raises.
I don't have a lot of tourney experience but I do have a strategy I try to adhere to - so for what its worth:

The Q-8o was in pos 7, three off the button and the J-8s was in pos 6, four off the button. I hope we can agree that:
(a) both had very weak hands;
(b) both were limping in hoping to see the flop and how lucky they could get and
(c) that both can be catogorized as very-loose/passive (lunatics).

First point: these guys usually don't last very long in a tourney and seldom much past level 4 or 5. Until they have been weeded out, your game play should be tight enough to avoid taking any or much risk of playing them. It probably already is although the K-Jo from UTG indicates it may have a leak.

Second point: in the early levels of a tourney I seldom limp in. If I think I want to play the hand, I'm in for a raise of 4-5 times the big blind. This is, as you have probably already figured out, to thin the field of garbage hands and the lunatics who play them - doesn't alway work but enough to keep most honest about what they are coming at me with. For this reason I have reduced my drawing hands in early toruney play to a very few suited connectors and unsuited connectors with paint. I also have a flush draw rule; "A flush draw has to also have overcard (1st & 2nd nut = A or K)) or str8 potential or it's dumped" which I apply in any kind of game but in early tourney play the flush draw has to have BOTH potentials. Basically I'm only playing Howard Lederer's Group A,B,& C hands.
I wished I could say my tourney experience was the better by following my own advice, alas I am still struggling with getting into the top 10% and avoiding stupid errors. Any thoughts on my two points would be welcome.

Aces-o-8s

**Beavis68** · 10-18-2005

Hand one, you should have raised the turn, called the river, not the reverse.

Hand 2. Fold pre-flop.

On the flop, you really want to watch for being dominated.

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