Good starting hands and early position?

**Pok 7's** · 10-17-2005

I was wondering what is the best way to play a "strong" staring hand when you're in the blinds with let's say 5-6 limpers, (which seems pretty common for penny "no fold 'em"). I'm usually unsure how to play hands like AK, AKs, AQ, AQs, or even JJ, QQ from here. Here's a hand I was looking at and wondering if I played it bad, granted luck was totally against me on this one but I'm not sure if I should be raising PF all the time with the hands I mentioned.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (9 handed) converter

UTG+1 ($0.96)
MP1 ($4.24)
MP2 ($2.11)
MP3 ($5.32)
CO ($1.63)
Button ($2.23)
SB ($2.22)
Hero ($2.65)
UTG ($2.70)

Preflop: Hero is BB with

,

.
3 folds, MP2 calls $0.02, MP3 calls $0.02, CO calls $0.02, Button calls $0.02, SB completes, Hero raises to $0.08, MP2 folds, MP3 calls $0.06, CO calls $0.06, Button folds, SB folds.

Flop: ($0.30)

,

(3 players)
Hero checks, MP3 bets $0.1, CO folds, Hero calls $0.10.

Turn: Ace of Diamonds (which dosen't show up here) ($0.50)

(2 players)
Hero checks, MP3 bets $0.32, Hero calls $0.32.

River: ($1.14)

(2 players)
Hero bets $0.3, MP3 raises to $0.6, Hero calls $0.30.

Final Pot: $2.34

Results in white below:
Hero has Ah Kh (three of a kind, aces).
MP3 has 6s 7c (straight, seven high).
Outcome: MP3 wins $2.34.

**Jason75** · 10-17-2005

If you're playing in a very loose games (few folds to PF raises), then I'd simply reduce the amount you raise to around 2-3x bb with unpaired hands such as KQ, AJ, AQ, AK, etc. One of the reasons we raise is to squeeze other players out. But if no one is going out, what's the point? Even if you raise 5x bb, if everyone is going to call, they're all getting their odds anyway.

With the really big hands (AA, KK, QQ, JJ, TT), I'd make very big raises.

But be prepared to fold your unpaired hands often (like here - 3 sequential clubs on the board and you've effectively got no pair and no draw! Run for your life). But you will rake in some big pots when you hit the flop hard or get drawers against AA, KK, QQ, etc.

That's my $0.02, but I'm not a cash game player.

**Aces-o-8s** · 10-17-2005

I haven't seen anyone agree with my opinion on this situation although Jason is leaning in my direction with the above post - so take this as IMO only and for what it is worth.

With strong overcard starting hands IN THE BLINDS, I will always just call! B/c:
1. AK,AQ,AJ suited/unsuited are not YET made hands - you still need the flop
2. It conceals your starting strengh - deception and trapping w/TPTK
3. It costs less if you have to bail out - your flop being the perfect example
4. Any bets lost pre-flop can be re-gained after the flop if the hand developes
5. Raising pre-flop with overcards is a tactic to thin the field - not likely from the blinds in limit and reduced in PL/NL depending on how high the re-raise
6. No-one knows unless it goes to showdown - assuming you muck your hands.

This should not apply to made hands such as AA, KK or QQ - and if your up to it, JJ or TT. Here your raising for value vs tactic/strategy.

In your post, the flop is a perfect example for why I play blinds this way, with these cards. That you called on the flop was a mistake IMO and the very reason why I advocate just calling pre-flop - you were up against a str8,a flush, a str8-flush and pairs or sets with what is now a very weak hand - you should have folded. No-one would be the wiser of what you really had (blinds are expected to be weak) and your play remains unknown - and it cost the least amount to fold.

That's my 2 cents worth - just donate it to the Homeless Pokerplayer's Fund

**Pok 7's** · 10-17-2005

So far I'm tending to agree with both you and Jason because I've been experementing with just calling vs. raising and I'm leaning towards just calling. One more question QQ, or JJ if an overcard comes out, let's say you check and someone makes a 1/2 pot or pot sized bet on the flop.....call or dump it?

**Trons** · 10-17-2005

I agree whole heartedly with Aces on this one. I jst recently started doing this because everything I've read thus far has stated that with AK you should raise regardless of where you're at. SSH even (IRC) states that AK does well in both HU and multiway.

However I have started jst checking/completeing with Ax (where X is greater then T) if there are several limpers already. It seems to be easier to get away from if I don't hit the flop.

Another reason I started limping with these hands in those positions is because if I raise, I feel obligated to make a continuation bet which A) usually won't get anybody who flopped a pair or better to fold and B) takes more money out of my stack if the flop missed me.

I've also done this from LP if I don't think I'm going to drive a people out also. making that decision is tough because even getting rid of the button/blinds can help on a ragged board. Not to mention the value of buying the button PF with a strong hand.

From EP I will raise with TT or better, AJ or better, ATs and sometimes 99 if I'm first to open, in UTG+2 or later and have some tight people behind me.

I've also kind of stopped raising PF from EP with KQ (suited or not) and other "decent" starting hands that are easily dominated post flop if a overcard hits. Especially if I know that anybody with an Ax is going to call behind me regardless of the raise I make.

Of course, I'm talking about limit where it's much more difficult to drive people off of hands. In NL, I think it would take a greater understanding of the people left to act to determine whether this is a sound stratagy or not. When I'm in a tourney, it depends on the stage of the tourney, what kind of hands I've seen people limping with, whether they get attatched to those hands after a raise PF or whether they can let them go before I can decide how to play those hands.

Of course, having said that, any comments from the "greats" on my thoughts on this stratagy would be greatly appreciated. As I've stated in my other post I've seriously started looking for holes to plug (I've only been using this stratagy for less then 1k hands)

**Jason75** · 10-17-2005

Originally Posted by Pok 7's

So far I'm tending to agree with both you and Jason because I've been experementing with just calling vs. raising and I'm leaning towards just calling. One more question QQ, or JJ if an overcard comes out, let's say you check and someone makes a 1/2 pot or pot sized bet on the flop.....call or dump it?

If you check and they bet, you really have to dump, with maybe the very occassional check raise. Otherwise I'd simply value bet on the flop about 1/2 the pot to see where I am.

**Pok 7's** · 10-17-2005

What's funny is I was just reading somewhere where someone refered to a nickname for AK as the Anna Kourinkova - because it looks real good but rarely wins

**Jason75** · 10-17-2005

Originally Posted by Aces-o-8s

With strong overcard starting hands IN THE BLINDS, I will always just call! B/c:

I would add the caveat here that "always call in games like this". In the higher buy in NL tables (which as much as I say I'm not a cash game player I have and do play in occasionally) or in a tournament, raising becomes much more effective at narrowing the field. Of course, a $0.20 raise just isn't as scary as a $20 raise - the real value of money being the difference!

That being said, I'd still raise strong hands to put some $ in the pot when I do win.

**Jason75** · 10-17-2005

Originally Posted by Pok 7's

What's funny is I was just reading somewhere where someone refered to a nickname for AK as the Anna Kourinkova - because it looks real good but rarely wins

I love Ron Chad's (WSOP Color Announcer) comments about AK - namely that he's seen more players go broke with it than any other hand and that many poker players should put "he started with AK" on their tournament tombstones.

**Pok 7's** · 10-17-2005

Originally Posted by Trons

From EP I will raise with TT or better, AJ or better, ATs and sometimes 99 if I'm first to open, in UTG+2 or later and have some tight people behind me.

I'm almost to the point I'm going to start throwing away ATo, ATs, and AJo when I get it

. I've been reviewing my starting hands and these 3 are fairly big losers for me. Okay, maybe not throw them away but I really gotta watch how I play these.

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