Was at this table for a while, fairly loose and passive, usually getting 4 people to see the flop.

PokerStars 0.50/1.00 Hold'em (6 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with , .
UTG calls, 1 fold, CO calls, Button calls, Hero completes, BB raises, UTG calls, CO calls, Button calls, Hero calls.

Well, actually looking back at this hand I should have raised PF. I just hate playing this type of hand for alot of bets out of position. I also have nightmares of Sklansky telling me never to raise with big unsuited cards in loose games.

Flop: (10 SB) , , (5 players)
Hero checks, BB bets, UTG calls, CO calls, Button calls, Hero calls.

2 over cards and a Gutshot, not bad...bluffing doesn't do anything against these guys though. I checked, was planning on folding to a 2 bet, since my 2 overs probably weren't clean outs. With everyone calling they gave me plently of pot odds to chase that str8.

Turn: (7.50 BB) (5 players)
Hero checks, BB bets, UTG folds, CO calls, Button calls, Hero calls.

no help, there was enough money in the pot to make the call though.

River: (11.50 BB) (4 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, CO checks, Button bets, Hero....

Here is where I nailed the hand, rivered the nuts. I quickly decided to go for the check raise, I assumed that the original bettor was going to bet again. That didn't happen and it was checked all the way to the button. Dang! Wait he bet....what would you do in this situation?

well to start with, i'll say i dont really like the turn call, because the could give you more trouble than its worth. anyway, your river play is very dependent on your reads of the players and the flow of the table. were these players call bets on the river with decent sized pots? or were they all on draws that missed and ready to muck? also, i understand going for the check-raise here, but i think it may pay better if you bet it out, because people will raise with just the Q on this, and then you can pop in a 3rd bet

I really dislike the checkraise. The 10 put four to a straight on the board. Reasonable chance the BB was betting all the way with a big pocket pair, maybe a set, maybe AhKh, maybe had AK and desperetely trying to get people out. At any rate, there is no particular reason to think he has a Q. He may look at four to a straight on the board, 3 other people in the hand and just check behind. The other two may be on heart draws, two pair, whatever and may just take a free showdown. Too much risk it gets checked around. Good chance you collect at least two bets on the river by betting and if you are lucky get raised by a Q.

I think many times in limit you make more money just playing straightforwardly in situations like this and just betting out. It's different in NL when you might be able to trap someone for significant money.

The way you played it you likely will get an overcall from BB if you just call = 1 bet, if you raise button calls for sure = 1 bet. I have trouble believing the CO calls either way as he would have bet with the Q in the first place and don't see him overcalling TWO other people. So I raise here and pray you get coldcalled from BB and maybe if you are lucky reraised. The most you are getting by calling is likely 1 bet, raising may be the same and you may get several more.

The hand didn't play out exactly how I wanted. After the button raised I thought about the table for a minute and figured that a raise here would definately force out the BB and the CO and that the button would only re-raise me (if he was rational) with KQ and that wouldn't net me nothing additional.

Maybe calling the turn wasn't the best play, the odds were borderline...If I counted my 2 overs as 1 out total it made up for it.

In this case I decided I had a better chance of getting a call and possibly an over-call to hands that I beat just by calling. So I just called here.

Fortunately my read was right and I got 2 overcalls.

Growlers was probably right. The Button had a Q9o, BB had a AJo and CO had J5. Leading here probably would have gotten me the BB to call, CO might have folded who knows and then the button would have raised. I probably gave up one bet by not leading, though I think I gained one bet by just calling instead of check raising.

Originally Posted by Phytopath

Was at this table for a while, fairly loose and passive, usually getting 4 people to see the flop.

PokerStars 0.50/1.00 Hold'em (6 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with , .
UTG calls, 1 fold, CO calls, Button calls, Hero completes, BB raises, UTG calls, CO calls, Button calls, Hero calls.

Well, actually looking back at this hand I should have raised PF. I just hate playing this type of hand for alot of bets out of position. I also have nightmares of Sklansky telling me never to raise with big unsuited cards in loose games.

Wait he bet....what would you do in this situation?

To answer your question on the river check-raise I agree with Trons and would likely play it the same as he wrote it up.
On your pre-flop comment I have to side with Sklansky. A pre-flop raise from the blinds with just overcards is (IMO) more harmful than good. You are not going to get anyone who wanted to see the flop to fold for one bet and you have given up info on your hand but you do not have position to capitalize on it. The only time I pre-flop raise from the blinds is with AA,KK or QQ and then it's for value vs strategy or on occation if I'm H2H with a mid to late limper or the SB, I throw in an pf raise to intimitate and maintain control of the betting. Otherwise, I keep my strengh a secret which makes a check-raise even more powerful as most wouldn't figure me for big overcards since I didn't boast it up pf! For example, I once went in from the SB with A-Q hearts and got the nut flush on the turn which I checked-called and then check-raised on the river against K-6 hearts (mid pos). The guy with the K-6 hearts was beside himself as he could not fantom the A-Q suited not being raised pf.

I raise...

The orinal bettor will probably call or even reraise the Q. I doubt you will have more callers even if you only call and you will loose the bettor's extra BB.

KJ

Originally Posted by Phytopath

Fortunately my read was right and I got 2 overcalls.

Growlers was probably right. The Button had a Q9o, BB had a AJo and CO had J5. Leading here probably would have gotten me the BB to call, CO might have folded who knows and then the button would have raised. I probably gave up one bet by not leading, though I think I gained one bet by just calling instead of check raising.

The CO overcalling two players with J5 here is one of the worst plays that anyone can possible make. It's even worse from a poker theory point of view than his preflop call in the first place. His play this whole hand was atrocious I would make a note on this guy and just follow him around, there is no way he is a winning player.

When I analyze these hands I have a tendency to discount the fact that people may be just complete idiots, and analyze the hand the "right" way assuming opponets aren't absolute experts but aren't completely braindead either. If you had the feeling all these people were weak enough to call you may have in fact been perfectly correct to just call as you did. But in an "academic" discussion, I raise.