PokerStars 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (10 handed) converter
Preflop: Hero is CO with,
. Hero posts a blind of $0.25.
3 folds, MP1 calls, 1 fold, MP3 calls, Hero (poster) checks, 1 fold, SB raises, BB calls, MP1 calls, MP3 calls, Hero calls.
First hand, no reads. I thought about raising, but with the limpers before me, I figured I was facing some overcards and wanted to see the flop. When the SB raised, I knew I would call but put him on the normal range of raising hands.
Flop: (10 SB),
,
(5 players)
SB bets, BB calls, MP1 calls, MP3 calls, Hero raises, SB calls, BB calls, MP1 folds, MP3 calls.
On first glance, I didn't like the flop, but I figured I had a pair, a gutshot str8 and gutshot flush. When SB bet out, put him on overcards (possibly pairing his jack. I figured a raise would give me more information, set me up for the free card on the turn and let me take control of the hand.
Turn: (9.50 BB)(4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, MP3 checks, Hero checks.
Yeppers, I'll take the free card.
River: (9.50 BB)(4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, MP3 checks, Hero bets, SB calls, BB folds, MP3 folds.
I figured my check on the turn would show that I was on a draw, but when nobody bet out on the river, I figured they were all drawing also so I bet out.
Final Pot: 11.50 BB
Results in white below:
SB has 7c Kc (one pair, sevens).
Hero has 9c 9d (one pair, nines).
Outcome: Hero wins 11.50 BB.
My question here is two fold, was the raise on the flop a good move or should i have check (setting myself up for a bluff by the SB), and was the bet on the river as much of a value bet as I believed it to be...?
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Thread: questions on thoughts.
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10-05-2005 #1
questions on thoughts.
Trons
Originally Posted by Jason75
JstTrons
Toyotatruck

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10-05-2005 #2Chaser
- Join Date
- Sep 2005
- Posts
- 203
I like to raise on the flop here you can take it down right there sometimes and often get a free card with a hand like this
Originally Posted by Trons
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10-05-2005 #3
Good play IMO...
Personaly, I always raise second pair on that kind of flop, especialy when I face a raiser preflop.
If he have a better hand than yours, and he feels comfrotable with it, you'll know it pretty quickly.
KJ
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10-05-2005 #4Chaser
- Join Date
- Sep 2005
- Posts
- 203
My thoughts on your second question are that it really depends on the players. If they were on a draw and missed, they aren't gonna call your bet and they aren't gonna beat you on a showdown either, so there is no point betting. The question is how likely are they to have a J or T and not bet it vs having a 7 and calling the river bet. You need to factor in how likely it is your opponent holds a 7 AND will call with it on the river vs the likelihood your opponent holds a T or J and does not bet it on the river. I would say a J might bet the river here a good amount of the time, but a Ten might not. A 7 probably calls some of the time but will probably almost never bet. A 4 or a 3 will probably not bet but they miiight call. It looks like almost a 50/50 to me, so it depends on your knowledge of the players, imo.
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10-05-2005 #5Poker Professional
- Join Date
- Dec 2004
- Posts
- 1,670
i like to raise here preflop, especially as the poster
i'd probably just call the flop
i wouldn't bet the turn? was this a valuebet with 3rd pair into 3 other people? thats like suicide usually...
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10-05-2005 #6
Call preflop, your not chasing off any overcards here, and your getting a "free" look at the flop, You don't have any reads, and you really don't want the table nut to get you into a raising war with 99, just yet.
Call this flop... no raise, no fold, call.
River, hmmm.... withno reads I dont like this bet. I'd prefer to check call, try to see a cheap showdown. If you knew that the SB and others play as they do, then a bet is a good value bet, but, not knowing anything, I dont like the bet.Marm is back, maybe. Been off for 3 years. Rusty as Hell.
Luck is a Residue of Design.
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10-05-2005 #7
I did call PF. I had posted BB because it was my first hand at the table. SB raised and I called him.
This is kind of where I wanted the discussion to go. I actually put some thought behind the flop raise. Basically what I was trying to acomplish was a situation where I could see the river card for free. When I saw the flop, I knew I didn't like it, with no read I gave the SB 50% chance of having a J, T, or higher PP. Once I decided to call the flop bet, I wanted to be able to see a free card on the turn, saving myself, or so I hoped, a BB. What I didn't expect was the check to me on the river.
The reason I chose this hand to post was because I thought the raise on the Flop was a good move in that it gave me exactly what I was trying to accomplish. The bet on the river was more because I read weakness and wanted to exploit it. I would have folded to a bet on the turn or river.Trons
Originally Posted by Jason75
JstTrons
Toyotatruck

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10-05-2005 #8
Another thought
If this were NL, I'd like a nice sized bet on the river. For Limit, I've got no friggin' idea.
Here's my NL thoughts: The only hand I'm afraid of here is 89 of diamonds (any other 89 would have to have icewater in their veins and ice cubes in their heads to let 3 other players keep drawing with two diamonds on board). It's obvious no one has a jack as everyone just called your raise then let a free card come off after the turn.
The turn and river are basically blanks, making the action on both a continuation of the action on the flop, where no one other than you showed any real strength (i had put the SB on a pair of tens with some sort of a vague draw - likely straight or overcard). Would have preferred you bet on the turn to take it down right there, it's a little exposing of your hand to just take the free card with 2 diamonds and 2 connectors on board (tells everyone else you're drawing after a semi-bluff - of course it seems nobody out there is paying attention to anything other than their own cards anyway, so not a major error I guess).
All in all, I bet you got a better hand (pair of tens) to fold to win the hand. But against better players, that pair of tens or broken draw will probably raise you on the river (I would have based on your check on the turn and the blanks on the turn and river).Last edited by Jason75; 10-05-2005 at 12:17 PM.
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10-06-2005 #9
Anytime you can make a plan come together just as you wanted, you have experienced Zen, my fren(d)!
Originally Posted by Trons
The flop raise for the free card worked and you got what you wanted - so far so good. Don't know as I would be so anxious to have everyone else get that same free card with both str8 and flush draws very much alive
and me with only pocket 9s but hey, that's just me!
My question is - what the hell did the SB think he had that warranted a raise PF? K-7s!! This guy is nuts - as in 'crazy' not as in 'has it in the bag'! Your flop raise should have gave you enough of info to bet on the turn. He raised pf but only called and then checked into you on the turn - he has nothing or very little (or a severe case of Fancy Play Syndrome - don't forget the str8 and flush draws on board)!
Following showdown, you'd have to read the SB as goose-loose and stupid - and a truly great opps to play against so don't tell him that!
That'll be 2 cents please - just donate it to a charity in my name.
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10-06-2005 #10
Well, I guess I am in the minority here and feel that the flop raise is completely ridiculous. This is a draw rich board with J107 and two diamonds. There is an initial bet and three calls behind that bet. The logical hands to place the SB on is a J, a high pair, a set, or two overcards. The SB if he is even a decent player will three bet you with a J, set, or overpair to shut out the three presumable draws behind him which is a disaster for you. He will call with overcards and no one is folding because of pot odds.
I'm not sure you want a nine anyway as this puts 9 10 j on the board and a very reasonable hand for one of the many callers is QK. I would rather get the 8 but if it is a diamond you are likely dead as there are three people calling the bet - one of them has to be on a diamond draw here.
When you didn't raise preflop and 5 people saw this flop you gave up all ability to aggressively push people out. I FOLD here on the flop in a flash. 5 people, two overcards, draw heavy board and all your outs are tainted!!!!!!!!!!!! I really must say I completely don't agree with any of the above discussions. If you don't fold this hand on this board with 5 players then I ask, Just what are you ever folding? In poker sometimes the flop sucks and you have to fold - this is an easy fold in LIMIT poker. A perfect storm of no flop reraise, no straight card, no flush card, and no overcards on the turn/river occurred along with idiotic players and you got a good outcome, but >95% of the time you will be eaten alive with these cards and this flop with 5 players. And the sick thing is they will have odds to call down with just overcards (which is the best you can hope for) since the pot is so big.
I guess you could call the flop since it is 14 bets to you for a nondiamond 8 since you barely have odds and if you call the other 2 nines as 1 out total since they are tainted, that gves you 4 outs. But there are so many redraws even if you hit one of those hands alot of times you will lose anyway. FOLD!!!!
edit: I juat reread the responses again, I just could not disagree more. I think you played it great if it were headsup or maybe just SB/BB but with THREE people calling the SB flop bet????? We need some more discussion on this hand, somebody please convince me my thoughts are wrong! And no "all these players are idiots, that's why I do it" - that is not a discussion. Thanks.Last edited by growlers; 10-06-2005 at 09:02 PM.
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