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Thread: Should I have?

  1. #1
    Poker Hustler Trons's Avatar
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    Default Should I have?

    I bought PT 5800 hands ago, I'm still trying to get used to using it and GT+ to adjust my play to my opponents/tables. I was 3 tabling at the time of this hand, but had jst folded the other 2 tables, I could concentrate on this one.

    Ok, A little background on this hand before you guys start bashing me over the horrible play. The guy I end up heads up against was very LA-A (at the the time of this hand I had him for about 50 hands and he had seen about 60% with about a PFR% of 15 or so IRC). He was also a bully and was losing a lot of money...Checking PT, he's down about $20 after 68 hands.

    PokerStars 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

    Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with , .
    1 fold, Hero calls, 1 fold, MP1 raises, 6 folds, Hero calls.

    There was a huge range of hands he could/would raise with here, I'm thinking my 6's are good, but wasn't that comfortable with them.

    Flop: (5.40 SB) , , (2 players)
    Hero checks, MP1 bets, Hero calls.

    I had watched him bully people out of pots quite frequently, and decided I was going to play back at him with a check raise, but wasn't sure if I should do it on the flop or turn. I decided to do it on the turn if it was a low card. I had seen him raise PF with a bunch of goofy hands, the odds he had a K in his hand was small and I didn't think the 7 helped him at all.

    Turn: (3.70 BB) (2 players)
    Hero checks, MP1 bets, Hero raises, MP1 calls.

    I like the turn card. It's low, I determine that it didn't help him and I'm ready to see if he has the king. I'm comfortable with the fact that if I check/raise and he's got a pair (either from the board or in the pocket) he'll reraise me. if he jst calls, he's not sitting on a pair and my 6's are good.

    River: (7.70 BB) (2 players)
    Hero bets, MP1 calls.

    I'm sure I've got him beat at this point and wanted another bet in the pot.

    I didn't include the results because we're not results oriented here. I wanted comments on my play before I posted the results. I will say that I was a little tilted against this guy because he had chased me off pocket 9's earlier with a PF raise, and bet out down to the river. I ended up folding my 9's on the turn and he turned over A6s for a pair of 6's to win the pot against a calling station.

    I'm sure that a lot of you are going to say that I should have played back him on the flop instead of the turn. I've gotten away from check raising on the flop except in very specific situations. There are a lot of reasons I've adopted this stratagy for check/raising which we could discuss in another thread if anybod's interested.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jason75
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  2. #2
    (Formerly Steve-O) Steve Ruddock's Avatar
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    the problem with getting fancy against this type of player is you never know where you stand. The only absolute is that he has 2 cards with some playable value(60% VPIP, so he is selective just not very selective)

    Why check-raise? if you have him beat he may fold, and if you don't it costs you more money, you obviously will not get this guy to lay down any hand that has you beat. The only hand he might call with that you beat is Ace high.

    I would let this guy keep bluffing and just check call here.
    Read my musings on poker and life at Online Poker Examiner, Poker Examiner, PokerNewsBoy.com, and My Poker Blog

  3. #3
    Check Raiser Aces-o-8s's Avatar
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Trons
    River: (7.70 BB) (2 players)
    Hero bets, MP1 calls.

    I'm sure I've got him beat at this point and wanted another bet in the pot.
    I'm not so sure you have him beat at this point; he didn't fold on your turn check-raise - he called! Does this guy generally chase miricle cards to the river?
    After a check-raise on the turn, your bet on the river would not get me to call if I had anything less than 2nd pair (7-7) so to be critical, I would say it was not a good bet. I would suggest inducing a bluff (with a check-call) as it cost the same as leading out and does not allow him to raise you if he does have you bested. If he checks thru you save/lose one bet but in either case you should have him giving you more respect next time.

  4. #4
    Poker Hustler Trons's Avatar
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    Steve-0, The reason for the check raise was information. With the check raise, I was comfortable he would raise if he had anything and jst call if he didn't. I wouldn't have been comfortable with a read if I had jst bet out.

    I had meant to mention that one of his "habits" included, if somebody played back at him, or raised him in any manner, and he didn't have anything, to jst call down to the showdown, regardless of what he had. Given how poorly he was playing, I was surprised that he bothered to fold anything PF.
    Last edited by Trons; 10-02-2005 at 09:06 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jason75
    I like trons' advice.
    Trons
    JstTrons
    Toyotatruck

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trons
    Steve-0, The reason for the check raise was information. With the check raise, I was comfortable he would raise if he had anything and jst call if he didn't. I wouldn't have been comfortable with a read if I had jst bet out.

    I had meant to mention that one of his "habits" included, if somebody played back at him, or raised him in any manner, and he didn't have anything, to jst call down to the showdown, regardless of what he had. Given how poorly he was playing, I was surprised that he bothered to fold anything PF.
    If you want to check raise for info, do it on the flop...it costs alot less. The problem is these guys just wont fold, so there is no point check raising the turn without a really strong hand.

    Calling guys like these down is fine, let them bluff away their chips.

  6. #6
    (Formerly Steve-O) Steve Ruddock's Avatar
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    Trons, you have Small Stakes Hold Em right? Re-read the section in the front on reverse implied odds, sums up this situation pretty well.
    Read my musings on poker and life at Online Poker Examiner, Poker Examiner, PokerNewsBoy.com, and My Poker Blog

  7. #7
    Poker Hustler Trons's Avatar
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    Steve-O, you're correct, I reread that section and it does seem to support a fold, or at least a call down to the river because it appears I have a weak hand.

    I knew when I posted this hand that it would look horrible. Again, I won't go into why I don't check/raise on the flop (although I am thinking about posting about that in case I'm making a huge mistake with my thinking on that).

    My biggest question about this hand was whether its correct to play aggressively into a maniac/calling station. I didn't want to ask directly because I wanted honest opinions about my play. Everybody seemed to focus on the check raise on the turn and supported calling down to the river. I'm in the process of rereading SSH because I have a little more experience and while I didn't like it to begin with, I'm slowly starting to change my mind.

    He turned over and I took down the pot. I know this looks like a maniacal way to play a hand, but once I had looked at his possible starting hands (which was quite large) I thought the odds that he had hit the board and/or had a pair in the pocket was small. I was really thinking this was a good example of using his past play to get a read, trying to narrow it down, and once making that read, playing accordingly.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jason75
    I like trons' advice.
    Trons
    JstTrons
    Toyotatruck

  8. #8
    (Formerly Steve-O) Steve Ruddock's Avatar
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    suppose he has something like ,

    You check raise he folds. OR you let him keep bluffing away his money by just calling.

    When your dealing with these players it is usually best to simply call them down with a hand like this, or bottom pair. raise em when you have top pair good kicker or better.
    Read my musings on poker and life at Online Poker Examiner, Poker Examiner, PokerNewsBoy.com, and My Poker Blog

  9. #9
    Chaser
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    Default

    Your play was risky at best and your bet on the river was terrible.


    Quote Originally Posted by Trons
    I bought PT 5800 hands ago, I'm still trying to get used to using it and GT+ to adjust my play to my opponents/tables. I was 3 tabling at the time of this hand, but had jst folded the other 2 tables, I could concentrate on this one.

    Ok, A little background on this hand before you guys start bashing me over the horrible play. The guy I end up heads up against was very LA-A (at the the time of this hand I had him for about 50 hands and he had seen about 60% with about a PFR% of 15 or so IRC). He was also a bully and was losing a lot of money...Checking PT, he's down about $20 after 68 hands.

    PokerStars 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

    Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with , .
    1 fold, Hero calls, 1 fold, MP1 raises, 6 folds, Hero calls.

    There was a huge range of hands he could/would raise with here, I'm thinking my 6's are good, but wasn't that comfortable with them.

    Flop: (5.40 SB) , , (2 players)
    Hero checks, MP1 bets, Hero calls.

    I had watched him bully people out of pots quite frequently, and decided I was going to play back at him with a check raise, but wasn't sure if I should do it on the flop or turn. I decided to do it on the turn if it was a low card. I had seen him raise PF with a bunch of goofy hands, the odds he had a K in his hand was small and I didn't think the 7 helped him at all.

    Turn: (3.70 BB) (2 players)
    Hero checks, MP1 bets, Hero raises, MP1 calls.

    I like the turn card. It's low, I determine that it didn't help him and I'm ready to see if he has the king. I'm comfortable with the fact that if I check/raise and he's got a pair (either from the board or in the pocket) he'll reraise me. if he jst calls, he's not sitting on a pair and my 6's are good.

    River: (7.70 BB) (2 players)
    Hero bets, MP1 calls.

    I'm sure I've got him beat at this point and wanted another bet in the pot.

    I didn't include the results because we're not results oriented here. I wanted comments on my play before I posted the results. I will say that I was a little tilted against this guy because he had chased me off pocket 9's earlier with a PF raise, and bet out down to the river. I ended up folding my 9's on the turn and he turned over A6s for a pair of 6's to win the pot against a calling station.

    I'm sure that a lot of you are going to say that I should have played back him on the flop instead of the turn. I've gotten away from check raising on the flop except in very specific situations. There are a lot of reasons I've adopted this stratagy for check/raising which we could discuss in another thread if anybod's interested.

  10. #10
    Check Raiser
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    No, against this kind of guy you have to value bet the river there... they'll call down with ALL sorts of trash.

    I'd rather have at least second pair to make this play here though... I wouldn't be shocked to see the 7 there.
    -You may not know this, but poker is a game of incomplete information.

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