If you haven't figured it out, I like to bring up scenarios to talk about that are probably not very realistic but to confirm what really is.

When I'm playing short handed or watching the high stakes limit games I can't help but noticing the very aggressive play and bluffing going on. It's more about playing the person to some degree than the cards, BUT, say someone has AKs and 2 other people see the flop and the guy with AKs is in the lead. The guy with AKs bets it out right regardless of the flop (let's say he didn't hit shit) and if played back at he will re raise. The guy plays it strong all the way to the river and sometimes he will get TP on the come or better and other times he won't hit anything. OK, most likely AKs will be the odds on favorite to win the pot if played to the end vs. the 2 people over a millions hands. So, in a way it makes sense to play this hand strong all the way. Over a life time you should make money plus the times when you make someone fold the best hand by playing it strong.

Opinions to why we shouldn't do this?

i'll give it to you in the fixed limit perspective


many people at the higher limits know when to pick their spots to be aggressive. they are all excellent hand readers and can often tell when ace or king high is in the lead. they will try to be superaggressive to knock you off a hand, and will back off if they know they are beat.

it's really just people thinking on second and third levels rather than just looking at how strong their hands are etc.

this will not work in the games we play because people are much more passive. generally a raise means at least a pair so reraising isn't going to push anyone off anything.

These overly aggressive plays are sometimes effective; however, a lot of the players you see at the high limits are degenerate gamblers or tourney players who are NOT winning players at the big cash games precisely because they play like this. A very interesting thing would be to see how big a favorite a hand like AK is on a flop where AK did not hit anything versus two random hands. I bet it would probably not be that big EV+, if at all.

These plays are mostly used in very short games against either other really aggressive players or very tight players who do not know how to play short. In a ring game of even 6 or more, playing like that will get one slaughtered.

Originally Posted by LearnPoker

If you haven't figured it out, I like to bring up scenarios to talk about that are probably not very realistic but to confirm what really is.

When I'm playing short handed or watching the high stakes limit games I can't help but noticing the very aggressive play and bluffing going on. It's more about playing the person to some degree than the cards, BUT, say someone has AKs and 2 other people see the flop and the guy with AKs is in the lead. The guy with AKs bets it out right regardless of the flop (let's say he didn't hit shit) and if played back at he will re raise. The guy plays it strong all the way to the river and sometimes he will get TP on the come or better and other times he won't hit anything. OK, most likely AKs will be the odds on favorite to win the pot if played to the end vs. the 2 people over a millions hands. So, in a way it makes sense to play this hand strong all the way. Over a life time you should make money plus the times when you make someone fold the best hand by playing it strong.

Opinions to why we shouldn't do this?

I'm definently talking about short handed play of 6 down to HU.

One thing I picked up on and do agree with in this situation pre flop is to re raise even if the guy UTG raises. In a limit game having a priemium hand(even if you don't have AA or KK and the guy UTG does, yet you don't know this yet) I think it's a very good move (in the long run) to re raise almost everytime since the BB now is like a SB and makes if even harder for the other people to call. You do a couple things, eliminate more people, take the lead in the later position and sell your hand as the best hand. Again you will run into aces sometimes but not often. I know the guys who play strictly by the book are going to disagree with this.

Preflop a 3 bet is pretty standard shorthanded with a hand like AK, and even weaker holdings. Even in a full ring game a reraise with AK is pretty strong for several reasons. (1) Against all but the tightest players it breaks even/makes money over the possible hands they could have raised with. (2) It gives you extra information if it comes capped to you or does not. (3) If you are against a weaker A and the A hits, you will probably get paid big because a lot of people put a 3 better on a big pocket pair and they will be obligated to call you down when you bet your A. You can even take extra bets off of them, as they might raise or play their hand aggressively.

Originally Posted by LearnPoker

One thing I picked up on and do agree with in this situation pre flop is to re raise even if the guy UTG raises. In a limit game having a priemium hand(even if you don't have AA or KK and the guy UTG does, yet you don't know this yet) I think it's a very good move (in the long run) to re raise almost everytime since the BB now is like a SB and makes if even harder for the other people to call. You do a couple things, eliminate more people, take the lead in the later position and sell your hand as the best hand. Again you will run into aces sometimes but not often. I know the guys who play strictly by the book are going to disagree with this.

Originally Posted by gaash

These overly aggressive plays are sometimes effective; however, a lot of the players you see at the high limits are degenerate gamblers or tourney players who are NOT winning players at the big cash games precisely because they play like this.

That is not true at all. Have you watched a high stakes game before? Every player is playing very aggressively. They mix up their play ALOT in order to keep the others guessing. I remember seeing one 30/60 hand history on 2+2 from an expert who bet/3bet with AJ high on the flop and raised his opponent on the turn unimproved because he had a great read on his opponent's hand that this kind of play was profitable.

they are just thinking at waaay more levels than we are.

Hmmm, maybe I'm better that I thought.

Here is a classic example of such a play I will do, IF THE FLOP IS RIGHT. It's raised pre flop and not from last position based on the players who see the flop. You have a couple callers and no re raises. It's checked to the the guy in the lead who bets the flop (it's key that the guy who raised pre flop makes the first bet). If I act after him I raise it, if I act before him I check raise it. OR, I will wait till the turn and do the same before betting out right. I might not have shit but how does he know that? It works both ways here, he raised it pre flop and I just called. The flop came up pretty raggy so on top of that plus that he raised he probably didn't hit shit. If he really didn't hit shit then watch him fold which is what you want. But he might have hit and if so he will play back at you. Here is the tricky part with the pros, you do this and they didn't hit the flop but still play back at you with nothing. Now it get's deep where the guy in the lead with nothing is trying to bluff the bluffer. Call it what you want but what happens pre flop, flop and what cards are on the board can make this happen. It takes guts to do this play but I can tell you that is what goes on at the higher levels. They are constantly betting and raising for info which most of us never really do. There kinda like advanced agressive chasers (pro fish), there hard to get rid of.

Originally Posted by bboy

That is not true at all. Have you watched a high stakes game before? Every player is playing very aggressively. They mix up their play ALOT in order to keep the others guessing. I remember seeing one 30/60 hand history on 2+2 from an expert who bet/3bet with AJ high on the flop and raised his opponent on the turn unimproved because he had a great read on his opponent's hand that this kind of play was profitable.

they are just thinking at waaay more levels than we are.

I don't watch 30/60 or higher often. I play it. 20/40 hold em 30/60 stud, 50/100 hold em, you name it. I find online at these limits the players are overly aggressive. Yes, sometimes they may have a great read, but often times these players are too aggressive and it costs them money.

I find check calling these really aggressive players down works wonders, and once you pop em a few times with a monster, that works well as well. Of course in very short games 2-3 handed, it gets a lot more complicated, especially in hold em. I personally prefer very short handed stud because it costs much less to see your first 3 cards (vs seeing your first 2 in hold em)

Originally Posted by LearnPoker

Hmmm, maybe I'm better that I thought.

Here is a classic example of such a play I will do, IF THE FLOP IS RIGHT. It's raised pre flop and not from last position based on the players who see the flop. You have a couple callers and no re raises. It's checked to the the guy in the lead who bets the flop (it's key that the guy who raised pre flop makes the first bet). If I act after him I raise it, if I act before him I check raise it. OR, I will wait till the turn and do the same before betting out right. I might not have shit but how does he know that? It works both ways here, he raised it pre flop and I just called. The flop came up pretty raggy so on top of that plus that he raised he probably didn't hit shit. If he really didn't hit shit then watch him fold which is what you want. But he might have hit and if so he will play back at you. Here is the tricky part with the pros, you do this and they didn't hit the flop but still play back at you with nothing. Now it get's deep where the guy in the lead with nothing is trying to bluff the bluffer. Call it what you want but what happens pre flop, flop and what cards are on the board can make this happen. It takes guts to do this play but I can tell you that is what goes on at the higher levels. They are constantly betting and raising for info which most of us never really do. There kinda like advanced agressive chasers (pro fish), there hard to get rid of.