I do not understand what raising accomplishes against this bunch, except building a pot with a shitty hand.

The cap is fucking bizarre. Fold to the bet and the raise.

Didn't you just start using SSH? I think you need to dial it back a bit.

I have played these limits quite a bit. If the table is passive, I will play a hand like J9s.

But raising here does nothing, The button and blinds will still call with anything. Position is useless, because they will still check made hands and bet or call with nothing.

I jst started using SSH. The play is a little looser (starting hand recommendations) and a whole lot more aggressive then I've ever played which is why I'm posting so many HHs to get feed back.

I guess you could say that while I understand some of the reasons for raising (without the nuts) and such, their implimentation is giving me head-aches. I have found lately that while I'm winning (up $3 for about 3hrs of play last night 2 tableing .05/.10), I'm really not very comfortable with when to raise, when to call, when to fold and why...

I've reread the practice hands at the back of the book trying to get a better grasp of which situation calls for which move, but I think this hand is a great example of how much I still have yet to learn.

Keep in mind that most hands come naturally to me. Either fold or raise...it's the limpers and post flop play with them that I'm having difficulty with. Thanks, everybody, for the feedback...lessons learned (I hope )

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Trons
JstTrons
Toyotatruck

Actually, I would raise this about 80% of the time PF in this spot, in a steal spot. Of course chance of success is so low, it may not be worth it. But Capping, oh no. But in this spot, calling is not an option.

And everything else Steve said.

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Actually Trons, if you follow this advice the limpers take care of themselves, (usually). Most of the flops you see not in the blinds should be pots you raised preflop. Don't ever limp unless it is for a specific purpose, i.e there are 2-3 limpers in front of you and you have a hand that plays well in a multiperson pot, such as Ax suited or suited connectors. There is no reason in a cash game to play j-9 suited unless you are stealing on the button i.e. raise first in with passive players in the blinds or about 4-5 people called in front of you. If it was 1-3 limpers I would play j10s but you need a LOT of limpers to make j9s profitable in the long run. In a tourney it is totally different, I am talking cash games here.
Unless it is a TOTALLY passive game where nobody preflop raises (and then I'll play more speculative hands then that are good in multiway pots but never crap like q7s) I probably raise >70% of the hands I am in preflop not in the blinds. I wasn't always like this, but once I started doing this the postflop play got alot easier.

I think that's where I'm having a lot of my problems Growlers, determining which hands like multi-way pots and which don't. Before reading SSH, I wouldn't play Ax (suited or not) unless X>9, and suited connectors only entered play from on the button if the lower card was >7.

I've been trying to look at my play, both pre-flop and post flop more by what kind of table I'm at, who's to act after me and whether I want them in the pot with me or not. If I don't want them there, then I raise (even if it's wrong). At that point, if they call, I feel that's its their mistake . If I want them there, I limp.

Hands I've been limping are speculative hands that I want to see a cheap flop. My biggest problem I believe, is figuring out which is which. I think this hand is a prime example of that. I also notice that once limp, it's difficult for me to let go of the hand (again, above is a prime example of that). Obviously, I have a lot to learn.

It was suggested earlier that I move up in levels to .25/.50, I don't feel comfortable with that yet. My BR is hovering around $75 right now (which imho, is great having started with $15 a month ago) but because I'm so uncomfortable with this new way of looking at hands, I feel it would do more damage then help...at least until I get comfortable with it. I guess it's safe to say at this point that I understand most of whta I want to acomplish with my plays, but I'm still trying to recognize the situations with which to make those plays.

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Trons
JstTrons
Toyotatruck

the easiest way to explain multiway hands is, Hands that will flop the best hand or a draw to the best hand but do not hit the flop often.

For example if we take your J9s hand and look at what a good flop is for it we come up with

2 Pair or better which will happen only 4% of the time

An open ended straight draw which will happen 6% of the time (using both of your cards, you will flop an open ended draw more if you include when only 1 of your cards are neccassary)

A flush draw which will happen 11% of the time

Add it all up and you will like the flop about 20% of the time. there will be times when you have top pair and such but these are not the flops you are shooting for and are very very vulnerable. So you will be happy with the flop 1 out 5 times and most of those times will be draws.


Now take a hand like AK

This hand will hit top pair or better about 33% of the time so you will be happy with the flop 1 out of 3 times


Now take it 1 step further and look at the vulnerability of each hand when you hit.

With J9s if you hit the flop, and subsequently make your draw your opponents will have very few outs to outdraw you. This hand can stand a lot of heat in the kitchen when you hit. The profitability of this hand is when you make your hand and have many opponents post flop drawing to very few outs. This is why you play these hands in big fields

AK on the other hand will hit the flop more often but the hit is not as big, therefor you would like less opponents drawing at hands to beat you. You raise AK to trim the field. The profitibality of this hand comes from Isolating 1 or 2 good but weaker hands preflop and getting them to call down with the second best hand.

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Now, why couldn't Sklansky put it like that ...

I actually had a very backwards view on it. It's nobodies fault but my own twisted logic. To be honest, I always liked a big field on AK so when I hit (often), I get paid big...With a hand like th J9s, I want a small field so if I hit top pair, there's a better chance it's good.

Now, before the flaming starts, Steve has already corrected that reasoning, and I understand it a lot better the way Steve puts it then the books I've read. Where my problem is going to be is changing the way I think of it without having to think of it . That will jst take practice.

Steve, I want to make sure I understand this. With the J9s I hit the flop only 20% of the time so I want at least 5 other people (so I have the 5:1 odds to break even, the one time I hit covers the 5 times I don't) and the more the merrier? If I flop the draw(s), then I still want those people in to give me the odds to draw out on them? Is that correct?

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Trons
JstTrons
Toyotatruck

Not neccassarily 5, since you have implied odds.

What you want is as many as possible especially ones that will call down with hands like top pair or middle pair. So you don't want to do what you did and try to eliminate people you want them chasing (except if you are opening the pot from late position)

If the table is very tight and folds post flop unless they have something I wouldn't even bother with these hands. but if you have 3 limpers with 1 or 2 calling stations + the blinds still to act you should definetly be playing these hands.

The more marginal the hand the more opponents you want in.

With JTs I like at least 3, with 45s I would want at least 5. A hand like 22-66 I like to have 4 opponents (so 3 limpers + the blinds still to act) before I am going to play it.

You'll only know this information if you are in Late position, thats why they call these type of hands late position hands. Not because you should always play them from late position but because the only time you'll know if they are playable is if you are in late position. Sometimes circumstances will be right, a lot of times they won't, but you'll only be able to determine this if you are in late position.

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As a note, that's one thing that you should remember if you're playing against competent opposition... if they're playing from EP, they probably have a pretty good hand, since drawing hands aren't really playable from there.

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