here, i'll spell it out for you. i think you might have misunderstood what i was saying.

on the flop, just call the 3bet only. he has shown a lot of strength by raising UTG+1 and has 3bet you after you checkraised him on the flop. 98% of the time you dont see a naked AK here at the 2/4 level. Don't cap. Go into call down mode and then checkraise if you improve.

So now that you just called the 3bet....
he has the lead in the hand. the turn T comes then you checkraise him. if he 3bets that, cap it. then I would bet/call the river.

If you cap the flop....
then you have to lead the turn since you have the lead in the hand.



you should learn more about taking and giving the lead in hands because in hand 1 you had some seriuos problems with that like 3betting the flop and then checking the turn.

The first hand in the post you are referring to wasn't my hand. I actually crticized the way that hand was played and kinda hijacked the thread posting my own hand showing an example of the same concept, which is the one we are now discussing.

But back to the matter at hand, I personally find that when you checkraise a preflop raiser on the flop that unless they are fairly passive they often will reraise with only two overcards to keep control of the hand (in fact I do that often). So you are betting the turn unless an A or K falls so might as well cap the flop to keep the initiative. Just because they reraise your checkraise has no correlation to them having an overpair, in fact I think with an over pair they are LESS likely to cap unless the board is draw heavy. You absolutely CANNOT give a free card to overcards on the turn just because they tossed another small bet on the flop out.

But we may have to agree to disagree because I would cap that flop and bet the turn every time unless I knew the preflop raiser was a total rock that only bets the nuts. (Obviously if I KNEW my 10 would pair on the turn, then of course I would just call and checkraise the turn which is what you are proposing to do, but that is being results oriented not decision oriented).

I'm not giving credit for an overpair hence calling down, but AT KT even QT are not that crazy. Last I played 2/4 it was fairly passive and I rarely saw people 3betting flops with overcards only.

The problem with what you are doing is you are putting your opponent on ONLY overcards because of the 3bet. I'd say that if they 3bet that flop you are likely behind 80-85% of the time.

I say let them 3bet us and if they have overcards thne they alrready have made a mistake by 3betting and if we are beaten, which we usually are, then we save some bets.

Also, if you cap then it pretty much forces you to bet the turn and a hand that beats you will probably still raise the turn.

Thanks, I better understand your position, I usually would raise the flop here again as long as it caps the betting (1 bet and 3 raises) but not if it doesn't, but I agree that is pretty aggressive and don't think it is mandatory and respect your opinion about that issue, more of a style thing I guess, can be done both ways.

But I still say you HAVE to lead the turn or you risk free cards to overcards (now we are talking normally, not this hand when the second 10 comes). If they raise the turn then assuming no particular read I'll just fold it right there as it would be a rare player that would do THAT with just overcards. If you are planning to check and call his turn bet, it is far better to just bet it yourself assuming you can fold to a raise with no regrets. It will be easier for me to fold that without regrets if I showed strength the whole way by capping the flop.

Good discussion, thanks for your insight.

On the OP hand, you're defending your blind. A. I wouldn't choose QT to defend my blind. AQ is a legitimate raising hand... when the Q falls you could very definantly be way way behind. B. You don't defend your blind by flat calling... re-raise there. Assuming he's a good player since you say he's been swiping your blinds, he should respect your raise... and you'll find out whether he really likes his cards or was just trying to pick up a free bet.

On the flop, I would have bet, but he raised. At this point I figure I'm probably beat. He could have AA,KK,QQ,AQ,KQ... and played them the exact same way. Against an agressive player with a calling station in the pot, I would probably try to check/call the hand down because of decent odds. So I don't have a problem with the turn and river play. I don't like the flat call pre-flop, or the 3 bet on the blop.

__________________
-You may not know this, but poker is a game of incomplete information.

when turn is T you have to go for the checkraise, that's the beauty of it. I don't understand why you would be worried about free overcard draws?

bet/folding turn is realllllllllly bad

Argghhhh!!!!! When I talk about the mistake of giving a free card to overcards on the turn, I'm not talking about THIS hand, I made that very clear!!! My hand is EASY to play when you turn the trips! I am talking about the vast majority of the time you DON'T improve on the turn.

Ya gotta read before you respond:

k

now lets argue about bet/folding

its reaaaaallllllyyyyyy bad

OK, I'll bite - I think that if you checkraise the flop, he raises your checkraise, you cap it and then lead out on the turn - If you are then raised then I think you can comfortably fold this. Since you only beat overcards,i.e. a high pocket pair beats you and you only have 5 outs (two for trips and 3 to get two pair) it would be a rare player especially at these limits that would raise you on the turn with just overcards, so it should be clear you are behind.

Now I am talking about folding strictly on the basis that you are behind with 5 outs. You are about 8.5:1 to improve to trips or two pair on the river so if the pot is 8.5 big bets or bigger you can go ahead and call to see if you improve on the river. 4 big bets went in on the flop (8 small) and if you bet and are raised on the turn that is 3 more so depending on the preflop action (was the pot raised? - I am talking about in general here, not this particular hand) you might have odds anyway as there is 7 big bets in not including the prefop action and other players dead money in the pot. So you may be able to call strictly from a pot odds perspective. But if you call and don't improve do you call a river bet?

But I still would argue that by spending one more small bet capping the flop you are either getting more money in with the best hand (good) or at least making it easier to know for sure you are behind if you get raised on your turn bet (also good).

are we talking about the same hand?

the hand I'm talking about is where hero just made trip tens.

if you are talking about a random hand where there was a preflop raiser, you cap flop with MPGK (not a good idea, but anyway) and lead turn and are raised, then you can fold, yes.