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  1. #1
    tdq
    tdq is offline
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    Default limit AK vs AA & KK

    this is a poker academy pro hand

    Poker Academy Pro #114 [Limit Table 1]
    Aug 16, 2005 5:35:34 AM

    1) ME $1062 Ad Kh
    2) Jaggy $997 8s 7s
    3) Maggie * $980 JavaScript 3h
    4) Maxine $1003 2d 5d
    5) KrabKing $991 Ac Ah
    6) Lionel $1022 Ks Kd
    7) Malory $995 Td Ts
    8) O'Brian $957 5c 6h
    9) Orion $1010 4c 3c
    10) Soli $983 2h Kc

    Maxine posts $1 small blind
    KrabKing posts $2 big blind
    Lionel raises $2
    Malory calls $4
    O'Brian folds
    Orion folds
    Soli folds
    ME raises $2
    Jaggy folds
    Maggie folds
    Maxine folds
    KrabKing raises $2
    Lionel calls $4
    Malory calls $4
    ME calls $2

    FLOP: 7d 8d 9c
    KrabKing bets $2
    Lionel calls $2
    Malory calls $2
    ME calls $2

    TURN: 7d 8d 9c Qd
    KrabKing bets $4
    Lionel calls $4
    Malory calls $4
    ME calls $4

    RIVER: 7d 8d 9c Qd As
    KrabKing bets $4
    Lionel folds
    Malory folds
    ME calls $4

    ME has Ad Kh
    KrabKing has Ac Ah
    KrabKing wins $65 with Three of a Kind, Aces.

    I was drawing and I knew it was maybe dead but with the huge pot odds I just didnt know what to do.
    I have a question. when you play, do u put people on a hand and fold no matter what the pot odds are or you put them on a range of hands and decide which are more likely and fold/call depending on the pot odds. If the latter, mind to explain how u do this?
    finally I want to know if I should have folded and why.

  2. #2
    Poker Hustler Trons's Avatar
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    Default

    I will call 3 or 4 raises to see a Flop with AK but if the flop doesn't hit, I won't draw with any action. I'll raise PF in early position. Usually I only raise from late position if nobody else has raised or if there's been one raise and people between us folded (If I believe the raise will isolate us). Obviously, I also look at who's doing the raising and how's he been doing.

    I may see the turn if there is only one bet to call (I know I should be looking at pot odds at this point but what the heck ). Again, that depends on the table. If I haven't hit by either the turn, I muck the hand and wait for it again.

    AK always makes nervous if I'm not the agressor towards a pot. If somebody else is betting it usually means they hit their hand (or already has their hand). I have played AK from start to finish like a AA and won the hand on river when people fold, but you have to have the right table image and some fairly safe cards on the board to do this.

    Usually I do this when I only have 1 other person in the hand with me after the flop. ie: limpers PF to me in lp, I raise, people check the flop to me I make a continuation bet. If the 1 or 2 see the turn and it's checked to me again, I'll keep betting it. I'm not sure if this is a +ev move, but it seems to work more times then not so I do it.

    In the example above, the guy leading the betting is a PF raiser and doesn't seem to be afraid of the str8 draw. I'm putting him on an over pocket pair with the bet on the flop. When he bets out when the Q lands on the turn, I'm putting him on AA, KK, or QQ. Either way at this point, I would feel that either an A or a K isn't going to help me and I only the flush draw at this point. If my math is correct, there is only $24 in the pot when the bet on the turn comes out. Not enough to give odds to call for the flush.

    One thing I like (and dislike) about limit HE is that it's almost always about the math after the flop. Even if you're blinded in with a goofy hand, if you have the pot odds to draw to a winning hand then you can do it comfortably. If the odds aren't there, then you know to fold. You do have to be able to put your opponents on a range of hands (the range should get smaller with each card on the table) to know whether what you're drawing to is a winning hand or not. Somebody once said that you can only count a draw if it's going to win you the hand.

    Maybe some more experienced people will chime in to correct my play
    Quote Originally Posted by Jason75
    I like trons' advice.
    Trons
    JstTrons
    Toyotatruck

  3. #3
    Poker Professional xxdemexx's Avatar
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    Default Pap

    In Poker Academy Pro you can set up the table to continuallly replay a set of hole cards for differnet flops/players etc.... and then graph your outputs

    Over summer I used it to see how to play AT suited in late and with correct play you can do ok with it...
    See me playing $10/$20NL like it was play money

    http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?...405&q=xxdemexx

    Doberman: "but Sarge, isn't poker gambling and just luck?"
    Sgt. Bilko:" not the way I play it"

  4. #4
    Fish
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    Default

    How do you play it?

  5. #5
    PokerForums God
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    you had plenty of odds for the flush, 24 gives you 6:1 but there was 52 (capped PF for 32 + 8 +12) so you were getting 13:1.


    just one of those hands, can't fold the river for one more bet.

  6. #6
    Mike McDermott Av8tor009's Avatar
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    its always mildly annoying for me when i know i have the odds to chase in a hand i have almost no chance of winning... just have to remind myself that im making the right play, even if it looks like throwing money away
    Lead Columnist, BluffAway Online Poker Magazine


    Online Tournament Wins: 11

  7. #7
    tdq
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    Default

    so calling it down was kind of a good play?
    (you dont actually have to anwser this)
    Last edited by tdq; 08-17-2005 at 03:01 AM.

  8. #8
    Fish
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    This is kind of tricky. When the other player put in the third raise pre-flop, I would have to put him on a very big pocket pair like AA or KK. I think that Aces are most likely by far. When the flop missed my completely, I would probably conclude that I was beaten even if an Ace or King fell on the turn. I hate to muxh good starting hands like this but sometimes it's the right thing to do.

    Best Regards,

    Sonesta

  9. #9
    PokerForums God
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    Quote Originally Posted by tdq
    so calling it down was kind of a good play?
    (you dont actually have to anwser this)
    I think the pot was big enough for you to call with your overs and back-door flush draw on the flop, even discounting your outs to 3 for overs and 1 one for the flush. You need like 11:1 to call, from what I see, you were getting 19:1.

    The turn is a no-brainer. The river is a "WTF it is only one more bet"

    Infact, I don't think the Kings should have folded the river.

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