Over cards on low flop been bothering me

**surftheiop** · 08-10-2005

Ive been reading alot here but never really posted a big question so here it is.
I dont have a specific hand history because this usaully happens in home games but this type of thing has been bothering me.
My pocket is something like AQ AJ KQ KJ.offsuit
Then the flop is something like 2 7 8
Usually people will be check and then one of the better players will make a decent sized bet ( maybe half the pot). To me this always seems to be an obvious bluff but i fold anyway seeing as i have nothing and the bet buys the pot %95 of the time.
i kinda got 3 questions:
1) should i be folding stuff like this?
2) should i be that person making these bets to steal the pot ?
3) should i raise PF with any of the before mentioned hands

**icemanjmw13** · 08-10-2005

A big part of this depends on how well you know the players and how they play. As general answers though the best I can say is....
1. Yes, if they bet into you just let it go, do not chase in No Limit with two high cards.
2. Again depends on the opponents. If you think they'll fold then attempt a half-pot size bet to steal. However don't try to bluff 3 or more opponents, someone will have a good enough hand or draw to call you.
3. I don't like most of those hands unless it's a short table. However I will play AQ and raise with it preflop (about 3-5 times BB as normal). However if someone comes back over the top of you just let it go, AK crushes you and any pocket pair is a small favorite. I've seen more people go broke thinking AQ was the best hand ever.
Hope that helps a little.

**Steve Ruddock** · 08-11-2005

In position you should raise limpers pre-flop with these hands for just this exact reason. Not only do you get to buy the pot but the pot you are buying will be substantially bigger.

You may also buy the pot pre-flop.

**surftheiop** · 08-11-2005

thanks for the advice- iceman are you saying you wouldnt play most of the before mentioned hands in a live game ?

**JokersWild** · 08-11-2005

Questions like this are always difficult to answer because of all of the variables at the table. I agree that those are marginal hands in most circumstances at a full NL table so you have to be careful, especially against more than one opponent.

One of the things to look for is what activity happened pre-flop. Were there any raises? reraises? limpers?, etc. Somebody who raised before the flop with a high pair or high cards will likely bet that low flop as a continuation bet. If it is a good player it is unlikely they have one of those cards unless they have a pair of them. Then you have to figure out if they raise small pairs and in what position.

Also, the size of the pot in relation to the blinds and the stacks is a factor. In some cases, I would raise a half pot bet by the minimum to see where I'm at in the hand. If I get a call, then I'm in a check/fold situation on the turn. However, a raise sometime buys you a free river card since the bettor will likely check the turn.

Also your position is important. When you have position you might explore the hand and when you don't, look to get out.

Personally, I would fold in this situation most of the time, but not always. Then you become predictable. And I don't think this is a calling situation. When you call, you gain no information as to where you are in the hand and the same thing will happen on the turn card and you'll face the same decision with the same lack of information.

**sonesta** · 08-11-2005

Originally Posted by surftheiop

Ive been reading alot here but never really posted a big question so here it is.
I dont have a specific hand history because this usaully happens in home games but this type of thing has been bothering me.
My pocket is something like AQ AJ KQ KJ.offsuit
Then the flop is something like 2 7 8
Usually people will be check and then one of the better players will make a decent sized bet ( maybe half the pot). To me this always seems to be an obvious bluff but i fold anyway seeing as i have nothing and the bet buys the pot %95 of the time.
i kinda got 3 questions:
1) should i be folding stuff like this?
2) should i be that person making these bets to steal the pot ?
3) should i raise PF with any of the before mentioned hands

I agree that the first thing to do with a flop is to find out where you are. In these cases, I will usually bet about 4X the BB and see how much resistance there is. For example, if I get a raise and one or more calls, I'm probably up against two pair or a set. In any case, even if the turn hits you, you may be drawing thin

**Shadypac** · 08-11-2005

bascially, the main factors for me are the type of players im playing with for instance if i know i guy is loose/aggresive and continues to buy the pot it might be a good time to bluff depending on stack sizes and such.

Other factor is how many people are in the pot, if theres 3 or less then occasionally if u were the pre-flop raiser or in last position u can try and make a half pot to 3/4 pot size bet to try and steal. Actually whatever size bet has been working in other situations is what u should bet. If its a giant family pot then dont even bother the flop most likely hit someone somehow. The texture of the flop is a big thing to....if the pot was raised PF and its a raggy flop with not to many draws then u can try and steal...but at the same time other people see this opportunity as well, so once again depnding on position you might beable to resteal from someone trying to buy it.

**Antneye** · 08-11-2005

sonesta......you need to base your post flop bets on the % of pot, not the BB's.....its all about the pot odds baby!

**icemanjmw13** · 08-11-2005

Originally Posted by Antneye

sonesta......you need to base your post flop bets on the % of pot, not the BB's.....its all about the pot odds baby!

This is a good point, I see so many people live and online building a pot to 500 preflop then bet 30 after the flop trying to force others out. Good bets post flop go by pot size, either half pot or whole pot, etc.

**icemanjmw13** · 08-11-2005

Originally Posted by surftheiop

thanks for the advice- iceman are you saying you wouldnt play most of the before mentioned hands in a live game ?

Correct, those are all trouble hands. Most of the time those hands are behind from the beginning. KQ and KJ are behind Ax from the start and people love playing Ax.
Now if I can limp in or even see the flop for 2xBB I will play those hands suited. However if I don't hit the flop really good I'm out.

PokerForums.org

Welcome to PokerForums.org

Thread: Over cards on low flop been bothering me

LinkBack

Thread Tools

Display