I've been a proponent of raising with AK, and I still think this is the best strategy in NL, but I'm starting to think that in limit that may not be the best option unless you're in very early position.

The whole point of raising with AK is to try and get heads up where you know you are at worst a coinflip underdog (unless your opponent has AA or KK). In limit, however, you're not going to drive out limpers with one raise - if someone will limp they'll call the raise when it comes back to them. I'm starting to think that limping with AK is the best move with several limpers already in the pot. Am I off base here?

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I'm CDO. It's like OCD, but everying is in order just like it should be.

In limit you make your money in small incrememts. You have a hand that will win more often then your opponents average hand.

Say you have a guy limping in with T8s, A3o 44 and K9o.

You are putting in 20% of the money on a hand that will win 24% of the time.

While T8s and 44 are slight favorites to you, K9 and A3 are huge dogs in the hand, and you will get more money out of them when you hit.

You can also "buy the button" with your raise, or force out the blinds to better protect your hand post flop.

If you are in the blinds it is a value bet.

You just need to make sure that if you miss the flop that you don't bet into 4+ opponents, and if you do, it has a purpose - like a free card play. If you call bets have odds for your discounted over-cards.

Gir.... I used to think that your suggestion was heresy, but I'm starting to change my mind.

I started out from this perspective: the way to make money in the low-stakes limit game is to bet your good hands for value, look for the math to hold up, and then win big pots to offset your lost bets from the times when you do get outdrawn.

I'm now starting to refine this thinking a little based upon playing a lot more live, limit poker (and what I'm about to describe applies only to low-stakes, limit games). From these games, I've noticed that, if I had a legitimate raising hand, and I was in early position, I could deter anyone else from entering the pot by making it 2 bets to go. On the other hand, if I was in late position or the blinds, and I raised it up, the raise never caused anyone to drop who had already entered the pot. The raise only served to double the pot and make players more stubborn after the flop because of the size.

As a result, here is where I think I'm ending up. If there are already 4 or more players in the pot by the time that the action gets to me, I will probably not raise any hand except AA, KK, and QQ (and these only because of their exceptional strength). Raising will not cause anyone to drop, but it will cause a pot before the flop that has at least 10 bets in it. 10 bets give plenty of hands the odds to take one more card off the deck after the flop (since once I bet after the flop, their pot odds to call will be at least 11 to 1).

If there are 2 or fewer players in the pot, then I will follow my normal raising standards. In this latter instance, the raise will create a flop that has only 6 bets in it if no one else enters the pot and the existing limpers call. That is often small enough to make future calls incorrect by any players remaining in the pot, assuming that I still believe that I have the best hand. The pot is also small enough that players who conclude that they are behind will give up fighting for.

The difficult decision is when there are 3 limpers already in the pot when the action reaches you. This is a field that, if everyone calls the raise and Big Blind joins the fray, is on the verge of becoming a big preflop pot. All I can say is that I've noticed that once the preflop pot gets over 10 bets in a small stakes limit game, losing players before the turn is very difficult.

This is issue is discussed in passing in this month's Cardplayer Magazine. Here is a link to an article that raises the concern that you have:

http://www.cardplayer.com/poker_maga...814&m_id=65565

Also, Steve-O raised this issue in this forum a few months ago. He raised the question about how to play AJ before the flop, based on an article that Rolf Slotbloom had written. I'll be the first to admit that, at the time of those posts, I was a vigorous advocate for raising all your normal starting hands that call for a raise regardless of position. Now, as discussed above, I would modify my position and call for raises when it can the desired effect: limit the field, as opposed to solidify players' commitment to a large pot.

oh boy

Of course, he gives no real reason why raising with AK is wrong, just that it is not his "preference" he is also talking about mid/high-stakes live hold'em.

so is this thread about AK in NL or limit? my responses would vary accordingly.

if it's limit, beavis hits the nail on the head. limit is a game of small edges, and raising preflop when you're sure to have equity over hands likely to call is one of thsoe small edges.

the mindset of a PF raise being a bad idea b/c it "makes your opponents play more correctly by building a pot" derives largely from a passing reference in sklanskys THFAP. on page 159. however, sklansky refers only to hands that are "pretty good but not great", and AK isn't in that category. Ak is a great hand, and pokertracker should verify that fact for you.

it will miss a lot, but that just doesn't make a hand bad.

maxpot

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www.parttimepoker.com - holdem strategy, poker humor and more

We did hack thorugh this a little bit a while back in a thread I started. He means for limit.

IN any non blind spot, I'm raising, unless EVERYBODY is in and Im on the button ot so, then I'm jsut bumping the pot. Same with the blinds, Unless I think I can get it no more then 3 way to the flop, I'll flat call the limps. It allows me to release this hand on the flop if I think the texture helped them more than me.....

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you should be able to do that in a raised pot too

Unless you are facing a very tight player raise UTG, IMO AK should be always raised or re raised...

The reason is simple, it dominates a lot of hand some weak players call raise with. (Ax, KQ, KJ, K10, etc...) (As Beav said)

If you both hit top pair!! Vivaaaaaaa, LAS VEGAS...

Of course you will loose it more often than you win 6 handed, but if you win it 25% of the time, it's a winning play. And belive me, you have to max out the profit on every hand if you want to beat the game in limit.

Plus, of course you wont make limpers fold, but you will kick SB and BB out with bad hands avoiding situations like a flop K-2-9 with BB holding 9-2o.

Plus, a reraiser could kick some limpers out too, increasing your odds to win the pot. (however, you dont necesserly want it to happen )

Just my 2 cents...

KJ

Edit: Just rered beavis post, and I realized I said exactly, but I mean exactly, what Beavis did... Sorry Beav I just red your post too fast the 1st time... Thinking it was bullshit as usual!!!
Kidding of course

mxp2004,

I completely agree with you. This way if your late position with 3 or more callers and don't raise it your hand will be more concealed. As for NL if no one had raised and it's my turn, I will raise it every time because the blinds are a lot cheaper than a Limit game with the same avg. pot size. In fact raising the blinds in a NL by only one bet is pretty dumb unless you have a suited connector and want to jam the pot. Like anyone who called the BB is now going to fold instead of calling one more bet, yeah right.